[aeronaut]

Richard, I live in Baltimore and work in Laurel. Don't worry, I'm not doing anything with the camber until I get the upgraded suspension on and see a) how it feels and b) what the numbers are. As is, the car understeers more (quite a bit more) than I like. From what I've read on numerous forums, adding neg camber up to around -2.5 is the first thing to do to balance the car (eg http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=995556). So I've just been asking questions to learn my options, and minimize the number of times I get an alignment.

Thanks for the offer to put it up on the lift and talk! I'll take you up on that, as soon as I have it on the road again, possibly this week (a wheel is off to check parking brake, need to bleed the clutch, and a few other odds and ends).

[fiveightandten]

Originally Posted by aeronaut

Looks like we lost a few posts from the server maintenance. I was just going to thank fiveeightandten for his additional input to my camber question....I might go watch bimmerforums for a set of used plates, after I get stuff installed and see where my alignment ends up.

That's been happening a lot lately.

I haven't contacted these people, but you may want to try:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...=camber+plates

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...=camber+plates

[aeronaut]

Originally Posted by Richardsperry

...

Fell free to come on out to my place and visit. We can put your car on the lift and discuss things in person.

Rich, thanks for looking my car over today, much appreciated! I'm glad we didn't find any surprises. Your insight was very helpful.

[bigneil]

If you're going with H&R springs, remember:

1) Nobody except BMW will know how to give you an alignment (except the best German shops).

2) For an alignment when lowered. You will need adjustable front Camber/Caster plates AND adjustable rear control arms (see my link covering these). The rear are needed also because over time the metal fatigue on the car is enough to require that adjustment for a perfect alignment, especially when lowered.

3) You can't run Dunlop Durezza tires as they are fatter than Michelin PS2 and they will rub the fenders on bumps (and nobody will be able to figure it out).

4) You want to change your rear spring bushings when you are in there. I didn't even know there were such things.

5) Powerflex RTABs (or are there RCAB?) are an option if you do all of the above.

6) Every time you get it serviced at a Tire shop or Mom and Pop mechanic that puts it on a lift, you'll drive off and hear crazy clunking in the back and you'll bring it back and they'll eventually realize they need to lift it back up and manually adjust the springs that roll sideways every time.

Hope this helps.

[fiveightandten]

Originally Posted by bigneil

If you're going with H&R springs, remember:
1) Nobody except BMW will know how to give you an alignment (except the best German shops).

There's no voodoo involved in giving the car an alignment when it's slightly lowered. Any competent shop can perform the alignment, and you certainly don't have to take it to the dealer. Some E36 stock springs have sagged far enough at this point that H&R OE sport springs don't even lower the car. I wouldn't plan on that being the case, but it does happen. It's far from making the car into an exotic automobile that isn't able to be aligned by anyone but the dealer and the 'best German shops'. I'd still say it's good practice to find a good indie shop to perform your alignment. But some people have limited options, depending on where they live.

Originally Posted by bigneil

2) For an alignment when lowered. You will need adjustable front Camber/Caster plates AND adjustable rear control arms (see my link covering these). The rear are needed also because over time the metal fatigue on the car is enough to require that adjustment for a perfect alignment, especially when lowered.

You do not need camber plates and rear adjustable LCA's because your car is lowered a bit.

You will need those things if you want to adjust the front camber and put the rear camber at a level that's out of the range of the stock eccentric bolts in the rear. But they are not at all necessary to align the car so it drives properly and has acceptable tire wear.

"Metal fatigue" has nothing to do with it. The stock eccentric bolts have enough adjustment to properly align the car unless the control arms are bent. If they are bent, they need to be replaced.

I'm not sure what you mean by "perfect" alignment, as there are no perfect specs. When you lower a car, you deviate from the stock alignment. If by 'perfect' you mean that both sides are equal enough that the measuring apparatus reads the same on both sides, then you certainly do not need adjustable control arms to achieve this. Adjustable camber plates up front are one way to get both sides even if there is a large deviation between them.

Originally Posted by bigneil

3) You can't run Dunlop Durezza tires as they are fatter than Michelin PS2 and they will rub the fenders on bumps (and nobody will be able to figure it out).

Who said anything about Dunlop Direzza tires or PS2 tires? No currently produced stock sized tires with stock wheels will rub the fenders. Dunlop Direzza Z1 and Z101 will both fit fine with no rubbing on stock wheels with stock tires sizes and H&R OE sport springs. Also, it's a slight misconception that Z1 star specs are much wider than other tires of the same size. They are slightly wider than some, but the bigger difference is that they have a very squared shoulder.

I'm running Z1 star specs, 245's squared. My rear is an inch lower than stock (much lower than his OE sport springs will yield) and doesn't rub with the stock rear lower control arms. In the front (245 Z1 star specs on rear wheels), I run a 10mm spacer. The wheel is 16mm farther out than stock, i'm lowered 1.5" lower than stock, and it doesn't rub the fender. I'm in the camber range that he's looking to achieve.

He'll be fine.

Originally Posted by bigneil

4) You want to change your rear spring bushings when you are in there. I didn't even know there were such things.

+1, Replacing spring pads is not a bad idea if they are torn or damage. But in most cases, cleaning them up is just fine. PB Blaster works pretty well as a rubber conditioner on components like these and cleans them up nicely.

Originally Posted by bigneil

6) Every time you get it serviced at a Tire shop or Mom and Pop mechanic that puts it on a lift, you'll drive off and hear crazy clunking in the back and you'll bring it back and they'll eventually realize they need to lift it back up and manually adjust the springs that roll sideways every time.

Hope this helps.

Rear springs that are shorter than stock can fall out of place when the suspension is at full droop from the car being on a lift. This is part of owning a modified car. When you change the engineering, you either need to learn how to do things yourself...or you need to explain what has been changed to anyone who is working on the car. Never deviate from stock unless you understand what it is that you're changing and how it will affect the car.

Changing things can have a profound affect on the car in ways that most people don't even think of. For instance, putting lowering springs on the car has the potential to do the following:
-Alter the alignment
-Alter the weight balance of the car
-Twist the RTAB's so they are loaded at the new lowered ride height
-Twist the inner rear upper control arm bushings so they are loaded at the new lowered ride height
-Twist the inner rear lower control arm bushings so they are loaded at the new lowered ride height
-Twist the front lower control arm bushings so they are loaded at the new lowered ride height
-Alter the rake of the car so the engine oil dipstick reading is altered
-Alter the rake of the car so the headlight aiming is altered

It's easy to avoid the rear springs falling out of alignment. Just lower the car down slowly and guide them into place. However, I highly doubt that he'll have this problem with H&R OE sport springs. You may be mixing them up with H&R Race or H&R Sport (which I don't believe are short enough to have that problem either, but it's possible).

[aeronaut]

FYI, I did a poor mans measurement of front camber after getting everything installed (HR OE springs, Koni's). I measured approx -1.2.

And yes, my HR OE springs still have a fair amount of preload on them at full shock/strut extension. Even with the shock unbolted, there's a touch of preload. They shouldn't move any easier than stock springs when up on a lift.

[Richardsperry]

Anytime.

Like Nick said, there is no Voodoo involved with aligning a E36. And with the OE Sport springs, it's no problem to get -2 degrees of camber in the rear.

If you don't have a trusted place to get an alignment, I'd recommend Ed York Automotive in Mt Airy, or At Speed in Hanover. I like Ed because he's close, and you get to sit in the car (to act as the weight), while he's doing it. He'll set it to what ever specs you want, and you can see the #'s while he's doing it. Besides he only charges $89... He's got a DynoDynamics dyno in there too. And he's a really nice guy.

[aeronaut]

I'll definately use Ed ($89 is a deal!) or At Speed.

[white-hot]

Gotta love the BigNeil posts! Full of win!

[moosebakir]

Hi guys. I'm out in the lutherville md area. I installed oe sports with all new bushings and Sachs struts. I notice that the Fronts seem the same as the original springs and so do the rear height. Also, my rear height seems lower than other m3s that I see, even before the spring swap. Looking at the fender, I can't put even a finger in between the tire and fender. It is a 98 m3 4 door.

Do you guys recommend anyone in this area for a clutch job. Thanks guys.

Moose