[fitchesbass]

Originally Posted by deilenberger

It's not that far off in price. Low miles, rare car (they are right on the numbers) - the S54's bring $5-8k more than the '98-'00 S52US engined cars. In good condition the car can be expected to appreciate - something the Z4 isn't going to do for a number of years. And the Z3 is lighter and faster than the Z4, and has enough funky appeal that some of us would rather own it.

Not that there's anything wrong with the Z4 - it's the best modern interpretation of a Jag XKE-Coupe (not the 2+2.. the original series 1 coupe, one of the most beautiful cars ever built IMHO..) But the Z4 is derivative - something the Z3 Coupe can never be accused of. The marketing motto for the M-Coupe was "It's a lot like.. nothing else.." and for a lot of owners - that's a good part of the appeal (aside from it being one of the most fun cars to drive that I've ever had the good fortune to drive and own.. I'm on my 2nd one now..)

hmmm.. I'd like some information behind that statement for sure. Everyone owner that I ever spoke about changing from a z3M coupe to a z4m coupe has almost stated the opposite feedback. I will agree with you that is does require a "funky" appeal. Curious if you have ever had a good amount of seat time in a Z4M coupe or is this just speculation. I've never driven a Z3M coupe, but the design (from a performance standpoint - suspension, brakes etc) without a doubt on paper the Z4M looks better.

I should mention though I would love to own or drive a Z3M coupe. I bet they are a lot of fun... but if BMW didn't improve the Z4M coupe over the previous generation, then there is something serious wrong in Munich.

BTW the z4 coupe is like a loafer and the z3 coupe is like a clown shoe.

[deilenberger]

We like our shoe. The Z4 is much closer to the E46/M3 in driving characteristics. I own an M3C.. it's a fun car, that feels much heavier, and less on the edge than the M-Coupe that I also own. Part of that is undoubtedly the M3 being a convertible - but a good part of the fun of driving a Z3 based M-Coupe is it's raw, it feels like a hooligan car, and it hearkens back to my youth, when cars had balls. The Z4 M-Coupe is trying to be pretty. No one accuses the Z3 M-Coupe of being pretty or even trying to be. It was designed by engineers - and as one real car nut said about it - it's a cartoon car.. one you would draw in high-school while bored in a civics class.

True story. Was going to a restaurant tonight - came to an intersection, was making a right turn on a yield lane - saw a BMW a distance away on the road I was turning onto. I turned, and nailed the M-Coupe hard. Nice one-lane smooth concrete merge lane into another highway. One of the things the M-Coupe loves best. Zoom.. never broke the speed limit, but got to it as quickly as I could, which in an S54 M-Coupe is something less than 5 seconds.

Went down the road another 1/2 mile - turned into the restaurant parking lot. Noticed the BMW that I'd pulled in front of (and they for sure never had to slow down..) turned in after me. I pulled around to a deserted corner of the lot (door-dings bug me..) and parked. The other BMW came cruising up the lot.. I thought to find a good parking space.

Stopped behind my car - older couple (my age like - old..) in a brand new 3 series convertible, top down. The woman yelled out "WHAT is that CAR?"... they'd chased me into a parking lot to look at the Z3 M-Coupe. I told her - she asked "what year?" - told her. She said it was really neat and she had her husband (who was driving) follow me to find out.

I don't think that is happening anytime soon in a Z4 M-Coupe, as nice as it is. I also have had young girls (15-16 years old) just start waving at the car (have to be careful, keep eyes front and center.. don't need to be arrested..) and kids on bikes chase me down the street yelling "Cool car dude!"

Last car I owned that got that type of attention was a 1965 Jag XKE roadster I owned. I think the Z3 M-Coupe is headed to the same kind of recognition the early XKE gets today. It will just take a while. Later XKE's were better cars, the current XK series is certainly a better car, but none of them captured the allure of the first series XKE (1961-67, in '68 the headlights came out from under the glass and things were downhill from there on..)

As someone once said - there's only one original.

And as BMW advertised the M-Coupe "It's a lot like.. nothing else.." and happily - it's remained so.

[mpire]

Wow, you are cracking open a whole can of worms.

Lets not get into which is better or worse. Reality is that the Z4 was a failure as a follow up to the Z3. The Z3 outsold the Z4 three to one.

Sure the B pillar back on the Z4 coupe looks good, but the front end looks like ass. Thats my opinion of course, but I share it with lots of people.

We can debate which is better or whatever, but the Z3 has the same motor, and less weight. It will spank an Z4M and its so much fun to do so. I have seen it straight line and on an autocross spank the Z4s at HC. A drag race is given, but the autocross probably comes down to the driver though. I can tear up the course, but I can't seem to stop in the box.

The Z3 has more soul, and it was revolutionary. The Z4 just didn't appeal to the Z3 masses. What can you say? If you like your Z4, then thats just great, but you probably don't get it.

I can't get over the Z4's front end. Those fenders, and the catfish grill. Its just my opinion, but thats the way I feel.

Glad you are happy with your car, and although there are issues with every car, the Z3 more than compensates with character.

The thing is, most people who have Z3s don't see the Z4 as an upgrade. Its a replacement, and most of us are waiting for the return of the Z3. I know I will be first in line for one. It will be under 3000 lbs though, not the 4500lb beast that is the current Z4. I have even talked to a few people who upgraded to the Z4 and now want to ditch the Z4 and find the newest Z3 they can to replace it.

The Z4 will never replace the Z3. I can certainly afford a Z4, but I bought a second Z3 on Wednesday with 30k miles on it.

Go figure.

[deilenberger]

Originally Posted by fitchesbass

hmmm.. I'd like some information behind that statement for sure. Everyone owner that I ever spoke about changing from a z3M coupe to a z4m coupe has almost stated the opposite feedback. I will agree with you that is does require a "funky" appeal. Curious if you have ever had a good amount of seat time in a Z4M coupe or is this just speculation. I've never driven a Z3M coupe, but the design (from a performance standpoint - suspension, brakes etc) without a doubt on paper the Z4M looks better.

Depends on your definition of better.. Edmunds on the Z4/Z3 and the coupes:

http://www.edmunds.com/bmw/m/review.html

Note which one they predict will be collectable..

Oh - Z4 curb weight: 3230 lbs
Z3 curb weight: 3040 lbs

Almost 200 pounds. But - it puts HP/LB close to identical for the S54 engined Z3 M-Coupe vs the Z4 M-Coupe.

I should mention though I would love to own or drive a Z3M coupe. I bet they are a lot of fun... but if BMW didn't improve the Z4M coupe over the previous generation, then there is something serious wrong in Munich.

BTW the z4 coupe is like a loafer and the z3 coupe is like a clown shoe.

Depends on what you consider "improve" - in some ways I liked my E36/M3C better than the E46/M3C - although the E46/M3 is better in some ways (build quality in particular,) the M3 "feel" is less in the E46 - you feel more isolated from the driving experience. Hard to describe - but drive both back to back, you'll see what I mean.

[mpire]

I have driven both on the track, back to back, along with the Z4 3.0 si

I can't see anything out of the rear of the Z4 M coupe and it under steers like a pig. Very frustrating. On a curvy course, I was spanking the guys in the Z4Ms in the Z4 3.0si with a steptronic gearbox. I literally couldn't get the Z4M to do what I told it to. I am sure I might get better with a full suspension and sway bars etc, but it just wasn't for me.

The Z3M is so much more predictable for me. Power slides are way too easy, and you can hold them forever. J turns aren't too hard, its just so easy to get it to do those fancy fun things on the track.

This is just my personal experience and opinion, and I would expect you to disagree if you like your Z4M. I found it to be utterly frustrating and I think BMW built it to keep the idiots from wrecking. The Z3 will bite you in the ass if you don't watch it. It has snap oversteer, but coddles you up to the limit, but it so much more rewarding to me.

I still grin like a kid every time I haven't driven it in a while. I drive my coupe once or twice a month. The last 3 times I have driven it, I was pulled over for wreckless driving. It just inspires you to do things you shouldn't. Drifting corners is natural, corkscrews at 75 is normal, acceleration is brutal, its all about character, which the Z4 M is lacking... But when they get to be 10 grand I might pick one up to tool around in. Why not, I still like BMWs.

[fitchesbass]

All very good discussion.

Let's face it we're all extremely biased in these opinions. Personally, Z4M coupe feels nothing like the E46 M coupe. My father has an 05 M3 and I have had a fair amount of seat time in it - him and I bot agree that they are vastly different in feel. In the same regard, I understand the different between E36 Ms and E46 Ms since I had one for over 6 years in which time my father bought his 05 M for comparison.

I am coming from a E36 with full GC coilover suspension. The Z4M coupe feels just as tossable and raw as that car imo.

I won't argue over the nits e.g. 'character' is such a subjective thing. Define character (is it little problems that make that car special - like mom saying his son is special?).

I come from a hardcore family of porsche car enthusiasts (aircooled) and they had a go in my M coupe a month ago and absolutely loved the handling and power. It is tough to please them considering half the cars they drive still lack power steering or brakes.

Regardless, glad you love your Z3M coupes. To me, the Z4M is without a doubt a step up from the previous gen... and there is nothing wrong with that. Right, the Z3M came with the S54 for a few years, but the S54 in the Z4M is slightly different.

At least, please don't compare apples and oranges... a ragtop E46 M to a Z4M coupe.

To each their own It was the same way with the E36 crowd... They firmly believe the E36 is much better than the E46 and visa versa (use to be on of the E36 lovers - so I know haha). Any time a newer model comes out there are always going to be people that like the new version and others that believe the previous generation was the best thing since slice bread. I've personally learned life is too short to drive the same car forever - there are too many awesome cars out there to drive. :cheers:




My family of porsche enthusiasts (though crowd to please ):

[fitchesbass]

Originally Posted by deilenberger

Stopped behind my car - older couple (my age like - old..) in a brand new 3 series convertible, top down. The woman yelled out "WHAT is that CAR?"... they'd chased me into a parking lot to look at the Z3 M-Coupe. I told her - she asked "what year?" - told her. She said it was really neat and she had her husband (who was driving) follow me to find out.

I don't think that is happening anytime soon in a Z4 M-Coupe, as nice as it is. I also have had young girls (15-16 years old) just start waving at the car (have to be careful, keep eyes front and center.. don't need to be arrested..) and kids on bikes chase me down the street yelling "Cool car dude!"

\[CENTER[/CENTER]

Well... OK then if that's what you think. I get more comments on my car then I ever did in my clean older estoril E36. Not that that is a clear comparison, but are you seriously trying to say that the Z4M coupe is not unique or a looker? Maybe you are a little bit more than biased than originally thought lol. I can fully admit the Z3M is very unique looking and I personally like it - but let's not get crazy here - if the Z4M coupe is 'ho-hum' then a 911 turbo must be 'eh ok'!

Also, im not trying to be on to catch a predator, so Ill stick to the 20 something women around me and not the high school girls on their cell phones. The looks of the Z4M coupe are pretty sharp - and I think appeals to a broader enthusiast base. The Z3 coupes were some what of a unique taste.

I sit in traffic everyday and whenever I have my windows down I always get people asking me questions about the car. It's not like an E46 M ( which in my area you can see on almost every other block) - you don't see Z4M coupes that often either. I won't post all my experiences of people asking me about the car in only 4 months of ownership because it might crash the M3f server... haha


Both cars are unique looks (at least the coupes imo). Stating otherwise is somewhat just illustrating being in the cloud of bias for one car just based on which model is owned - and I believe me use to be there with the E36 too.

I appreciate what both has too offer and as I stated like 5 times now, I hope to get to drive a Z3M coupe (S54) in the future.

[mpire]

You know, I think its great you love your car. Obviously you will be biased one way or another.

Having driven just about every variant of BMW's Z cars I think I have a much more rounded view of the whole thing.

Regardless, the Z3 outsold the Z4 3 to 1. I think that speaks for itself.

The reason the Z4 was such a failure, is that the Z3 owners (300,000 of them) didn't see the Z4 as the successor. They still don't.

Its not the same feel, the same character. Its one thing to compare the E30 to the E36 and to the E46. Those cars are clearly evolutions. Other than the badges, there isn't really anything evolutionary about the Z4. Its a completely different car.

The Z4 will go down in history as a failure. Just like the Pontiac solstice. It just didn't inspire people enough to actually buy one. Sure they are great cars, and much better than the rest out the junk out there.

So lets stop comparing the Z4 to the Z3. There is no comparison. If you compare the Z4 M to the S54 Z3 M, the Z3 wins across the board in performance and handling. You can talk about one thing or another, or you can say that this is better or that is improved, but the number speak for themselves.

Resale prices on the Z4 M Coupe are already dropping to prices equal and sometimes lower than the S54 Z3 M Coupes. (It surprised me!)

The rest is just subjective. The numbers and the market have already spoken.

I am sure you love your cars, and I think the Z4 is a great car. I would even consider buying a Z4 M Coupe when they get down to around 10 grand. It would be a great beater I think. I like cars, and I especially like BMWs. So lets quit beating a dead horse.

[fitchesbass]

ugh I don't think you read a thing I said. I am not going to argue with you. I already stated WE ARE ALL BIASED.

Only thing I will respond to the out-sold comment:

I am assuming you are comparing the regular Z3/Z4 sales. Who cares about those? We are talking about M coupes. I don't care if the Z4 ragtops were a flop. Heck, did you ever look at the price points or other reasons that may have changed the sales figures e.g. more competition on the roadster market place etc.? Furthermore, as enthusiast what in the world do I care about how many regular joe's by a certain car? I think this is potentially the best way to evaluate a car - based on how many people buy... brilliant! If the models were sold in the same exact conditions (e.g. years etc) than your argument would be valid.

Your comments on a failure - are laughable. I personally am not a fan of ragtops in general and thus not a fan of regular Z3s/Z4s. Comparison to Z4 to Pontiac Solistice - must be the reason why BMW is continuing the Z4 with the new generation right? Because the previously generation was SUCH a failure that they were like 'hey let's keep this going'. I am sorry you can't recognize that the Z4 was an improvement of the Z3 because of sales numbers.

I can tell you're a real enthusiast. Pardon me while I go out and worship my M coupe because I don't know anything else and have never drive any other sports cars. I can appreciate the previous M coupe and not discrediting what it had to offer. Let's face it though, there were an number of issues that plague the e36/8 chassis.

[fitchesbass]

Originally Posted by mpire

I would even consider buying a Z4 M Coupe when they get down to around 10 grand. It would be a great beater I think. I like cars, and I especially like BMWs. So lets quit beating a dead horse.

LOL awesome... good luck with that. Maybe you can buy mine next year for 5 grand? Talk about failure. All cars depreciate the most in the first few years - but maybe (just maybe) your great market prowess and analysis is missing that point.

Clearly you should work for BMW since you can see the market better than anyone else.

Originally Posted by mpire

So lets stop comparing the Z4 to the Z3. There is no comparison. If you compare the Z4 M to the S54 Z3 M, the Z3 wins across the board in performance and handling. You can talk about one thing or another, or you can say that this is better or that is improved, but the number speak for themselves.

It's natural to compare one version of the M coupe to the next. I would love to see the actual statistics / results that show stock for stock the Z3 S54 walks a Z4M coupe on the track. Modding is a whole different ball game. comparing a Z3M with a coilover suspension to a stock Z4M makes little sense from a performance standpoint.