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E46 M3 (2001-2006) Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006.


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Old Sat, Oct-14-2017, 03:41:39 PM   #61
EricSMG
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Default Re: 13.5F/13R & 19's - most comfortable suspension avail?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SG/IRM3 View Post
I think,in the end,one should be honest with themselves about how they use the car and have realistic expectations with respect to what they want from a suspension. Everything is a compromise and no suspension is going to do everything well across the spectrum of comfortable street use to track use.
Yes! And on the other side of that same coin, people need to be candid about how "comfortable" their racecar suspension in on the street.

The good news is that there is a (finally) shift happening on the board and we're become much more honest and candid (read: mature) as a group.
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Old Sun, Oct-15-2017, 03:26:44 PM   #62
WuBai
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Default Re: 13.5F/13R & 19's - most comfortable suspension avail?

I just want to thank the OP and everyone who has responded with their input on this thread. It is rare when I come to find that I can actually spend LESS money and get my desired outcomes. I will plan on getting the TCK DA with 450/500 springs, but I have three questions.

I'm currently running Vorschlag camber plates. I find I don't run anything more than -2.0 on the front. With the TCK DA kit, what is the most compliant camber plate that still gives me some adjustability over OEM? Dinan?

Eric mentioned flat ride. This is very interesting to me as I think Eric and I have the same goals and ideas about good handling, although he is much more extreme in his persuit of perfection. I'm grateful for people like him since it saves me a ton of money without trying everything on the menu. I simply can say "waiter, I'll have what he's having." With that, for a flat ride what spring rates are recommended? 450/500 or something with more of a difference front to rear?

Last but not least, the RSMs. I read Obio's review of the ECS spherical RSM kit that keeps the geometry perfect and doesn't add NVH. Would that kit be a good compromise for NVH? I'm on the fence between completely eliminating NVH and having the geometry of the suspension true through the entire compression range. My idea is that if I can just let the shocks and springs do their thing then their quality will shine versus muffling their action with rubber. Kind of like high end audio, great speakers with a bad MP3 will really showcase the lack of fidelity in a music file. The speakers in this case are items like camber plates, fcabs, RSM and RTABS. If these are monoballs and I run a crap suspension I will only feel the crappy nature of the shocks/springs more accurately. Moreover if the shocks and springs are of high quality, these components will let them work more truly and give me a better ride. I could be WAY off in this theory though so am anxious to hear thoughts.
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Old Sun, Oct-15-2017, 04:45:44 PM   #63
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Default Re: 13.5F/13R & 19's - most comfortable suspension avail?

Dinan plates use the OE hats I believe and are not adjustable.
Vorschlag plates are good, I would keep them if you already have them. Otherwise GC street plates.
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Old Sun, Oct-15-2017, 05:04:24 PM   #64
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Default Re: 13.5F/13R & 19's - most comfortable suspension avail?

I am now of the opinion that compromising theoretically optimal suspension geometry (eg rubber vs spherical RSM) for the sake of reducing NVH is a trade I'll make without hesitation unless the car is trailered and competing for wins.
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Old Sun, Oct-15-2017, 05:39:57 PM   #65
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Default Re: 13.5F/13R & 19's - most comfortable suspension avail?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WuBai View Post
I just want to thank the OP and everyone who has responded with their input on this thread. It is rare when I come to find that I can actually spend LESS money and get my desired outcomes. I will plan on getting the TCK DA with 450/500 springs, but I have three questions.

I'm currently running Vorschlag camber plates. I find I don't run anything more than -2.0 on the front. With the TCK DA kit, what is the most compliant camber plate that still gives me some adjustability over OEM? Dinan?

Eric mentioned flat ride. This is very interesting to me as I think Eric and I have the same goals and ideas about good handling, although he is much more extreme in his persuit of perfection. I'm grateful for people like him since it saves me a ton of money without trying everything on the menu. I simply can say "waiter, I'll have what he's having." With that, for a flat ride what spring rates are recommended? 450/500 or something with more of a difference front to rear?

Last but not least, the RSMs. I read Obio's review of the ECS spherical RSM kit that keeps the geometry perfect and doesn't add NVH. Would that kit be a good compromise for NVH? I'm on the fence between completely eliminating NVH and having the geometry of the suspension true through the entire compression range. My idea is that if I can just let the shocks and springs do their thing then their quality will shine versus muffling their action with rubber. Kind of like high end audio, great speakers with a bad MP3 will really showcase the lack of fidelity in a music file. The speakers in this case are items like camber plates, fcabs, RSM and RTABS. If these are monoballs and I run a crap suspension I will only feel the crappy nature of the shocks/springs more accurately. Moreover if the shocks and springs are of high quality, these components will let them work more truly and give me a better ride. I could be WAY off in this theory though so am anxious to hear thoughts.
Thanks for the kind words. I would also like to point out that Twentyseven, Bimmerman and Obioban have been extremely forthcoming AND candid, which only helps the community. These guys call it like it is which is immensely valuable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WyattH View Post
Dinan plates use the OE hats I believe and are not adjustable.
Vorschlag plates are good, I would keep them if you already have them. Otherwise GC street plates.
Yeah, the Dinans have their place but they 'compress' the struts 10mm for a given ride height = no go unless you're running the car pretty high. 10mm of bumptravel is significant on lowered cars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmerman325i View Post
I am now of the opinion that compromising theoretically optimal suspension geometry (eg rubber vs spherical RSM) for the sake of reducing NVH is a trade I'll make without hesitation unless the car is trailered and competing for wins.
+1000000000

Solid bushings, joints, etc. generally have a dramatically negative affect on in-cabin comfort. The rubber bits used in these cars from the factory are very firm and just right for a street car - they absorb the initial 'hit' but return the suspension components to their original location very quickly.
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Old Sun, Oct-15-2017, 06:20:58 PM   #66
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Default Re: 13.5F/13R & 19's - most comfortable suspension avail?

I agree and have gone back to rubber FCABs, but I have to say, these SDW spherical rtabs are pretty awesome. If you're going to go away from stock somewhere, I think the RTAB is the place. Yes a bit more nvh, but here it's worthy trade off as there is no toe change and confidence is so high IMO. Otherwise, I would go with stock or stiffer rubber, bit still rubber, in other locations, FCAB especially.

My turner street plates have a good isolator that is replaceable to boot. I don't find it to be much harsher than the stock hats and a reduction of stack height on a moderately lowered car like mine is very welcome.
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-NA S54-


·Evolve-R Alpha N · Evolve CSL CF Airbox · Eventuri Scoop · Supersprint V1 stepped 63mm · SS V1 S pipe 63mm + 200 cell HFC · OE sect 2 60mm · SS Sport 60mm
·Besian · RE pullies/fan delete · WPC rod bearings · GroundControl S/A (Koni/Eibach 440/550) + tall RSMs · TMS Camber & Subframe plates · SPC Adj alloy rear camber arms
·RE Trans Mounts · AKG poly SUB/DIFF 95a · SDW RTAB · Weighted ///M knob + UUC DSSR + delrin carrier bush · OE CSL trunk · APEX 75mm Studs
·Sportline 8S 18"x8.5/9.5" · MPSS 245/275 · Brembo 996 36/40 345mm CSL Textar FF & 28/30 328mm CSL ATE "D738" FF · CM brackets & ss/teflon lines
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Old Mon, Oct-16-2017, 02:18:54 PM   #67
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Default Re: 13.5F/13R & 19's - most comfortable suspension avail?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WuBai View Post
I just want to thank the OP and everyone who has responded with their input on this thread. It is rare when I come to find that I can actually spend LESS money and get my desired outcomes. I will plan on getting the TCK DA with 450/500 springs, but I have three questions.

I'm currently running Vorschlag camber plates. I find I don't run anything more than -2.0 on the front. With the TCK DA kit, what is the most compliant camber plate that still gives me some adjustability over OEM? Dinan?

Eric mentioned flat ride. This is very interesting to me as I think Eric and I have the same goals and ideas about good handling, although he is much more extreme in his persuit of perfection. I'm grateful for people like him since it saves me a ton of money without trying everything on the menu. I simply can say "waiter, I'll have what he's having." With that, for a flat ride what spring rates are recommended? 450/500 or something with more of a difference front to rear?

Last but not least, the RSMs. I read Obio's review of the ECS spherical RSM kit that keeps the geometry perfect and doesn't add NVH. Would that kit be a good compromise for NVH? I'm on the fence between completely eliminating NVH and having the geometry of the suspension true through the entire compression range. My idea is that if I can just let the shocks and springs do their thing then their quality will shine versus muffling their action with rubber. Kind of like high end audio, great speakers with a bad MP3 will really showcase the lack of fidelity in a music file. The speakers in this case are items like camber plates, fcabs, RSM and RTABS. If these are monoballs and I run a crap suspension I will only feel the crappy nature of the shocks/springs more accurately. Moreover if the shocks and springs are of high quality, these components will let them work more truly and give me a better ride. I could be WAY off in this theory though so am anxious to hear thoughts.
The dinan "camber plates" don't offer any more adjustment than stock-- just a different fixed location.

I believe these are the quietest/most civil plates on the market:
https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-3...treet/?pdk=AQE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmerman325i View Post
I am now of the opinion that compromising theoretically optimal suspension geometry (eg rubber vs spherical RSM) for the sake of reducing NVH is a trade I'll make without hesitation unless the car is trailered and competing for wins.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricSMG View Post
Solid bushings, joints, etc. generally have a dramatically negative affect on in-cabin comfort. The rubber bits used in these cars from the factory are very firm and just right for a street car - they absorb the initial 'hit' but return the suspension components to their original location very quickly.
The ECS RSMs are monoball and bushed. I ran straight monoball RSMs in the past and had to take them out. With the ECS hybrids, I can't hear a difference from stock.

If you had a noisy shock, they'd likely transmit more of that. But, assuming you have a silent shock (requirement for street or track use for me, as I like noises to indicate something being broken so I know when things are broken), I don't detect any additional NHV from them over stock rubber.
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Old Mon, Oct-16-2017, 04:10:07 PM   #68
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Default Re: 13.5F/13R & 19's - most comfortable suspension avail?

So final question, and yes there is a thread on this specifically regarding what spring rates to use for the TCK DA's but my question is regarding having the 'flat ride.' What would a good recommendation be to achieve this? I'm thinking of taking Obiobans advice on the Turner plates (or maybe keeping my Vorschlag) and going to the ECS monoball bushed RSMs. Just need to tie down what springs I would use to achieve that type of handing that I'm searching for, meaning a more 'organic' feel with a small amount of weight distribution so that can dances instead of sharply carves. Great thread, especially since I was a younger guy when I bought this car and my tastes are changing as both the car and I age.
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Old Mon, Oct-16-2017, 04:25:54 PM   #69
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Default Re: 13.5F/13R & 19's - most comfortable suspension avail?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WuBai View Post
So final question, and yes there is a thread on this specifically regarding what spring rates to use for the TCK DA's but my question is regarding having the 'flat ride.' What would a good recommendation be to achieve this? I'm thinking of taking Obiobans advice on the Turner plates (or maybe keeping my Vorschlag) and going to the ECS monoball bushed RSMs. Just need to tie down what springs I would use to achieve that type of handing that I'm searching for, meaning a more 'organic' feel with a small amount of weight distribution so that can dances instead of sharply carves. Great thread, especially since I was a younger guy when I bought this car and my tastes are changing as both the car and I age.
300/500 would get you "flat ride"
Front motion ratio is .96
rear is .67

So you'd get wheel rates of 288 front, 335 rear.
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Old Mon, Oct-16-2017, 04:46:43 PM   #70
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Default Re: 13.5F/13R & 19's - most comfortable suspension avail?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
300/500 would get you "flat ride"
Front motion ratio is .96
rear is .67

So you'd get wheel rates of 288 front, 335 rear.
Thank you Obioban! I have absolutely no idea what the motion ratios or wheel rates are, but thanks to this forum and some of you guys, I don't have to know!

My next suspension is now set. I had Koni's with OEM springs and it was fine. My rear spring cracked and it was cheaper to use Eibach Pro Kit springs than get new OEM springs so I tried that. Car looks lower and better but I'm really not liking the ride anymore. This sounds like a winning ticket, and MUCH cheaper than going JRZ/MCS with similar springs.
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Discussing 13.5F/13R & 19's - most comfortable suspension avail? in the E46 M3 (2001-2006) Forum - Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006. at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)