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E46 M3 (2001-2006) Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006.


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Old Tue, Jan-10-2017, 06:13:39 AM   #21
AussieE46M3
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Default Re: CMP Auto Engineering subframe kit

Thanks Baders, we always appreciate the local support!

There will be more sales in future. We'll be posting on Facebook when we plan to do them if you want to follow us and get yours at a good price when the time comes.

We offer free shipping in Aus!

www.facebook.com/cmpauto/
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Old Wed, Jan-11-2017, 10:48:58 AM   #22
baders
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Default Re: CMP Auto Engineering subframe kit

Hehehe, I'm Facebookless. I'll keep an eye on your web site and here.
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Old Thu, Jan-12-2017, 12:12:43 AM   #23
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Default Re: CMP Auto Engineering subframe kit

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Originally Posted by baders View Post
The mere fact that you should be able to supply to Australian E46 owners at a reasonable rate is reason enough for me to support this. Whilst my car appears to be clear of cracking it may not always be so. I'll be eagerly awaiting the installation instructions.
Yeah this is great for us. The vince solution is a good one but cost prohibitive with the exchange rate and shipping.
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Old Thu, Jan-12-2017, 05:28:44 AM   #24
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Default Re: CMP Auto Engineering subframe kit

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWarHammer View Post
Most unibody cars usually have the subframes attached to the frame rails or close to them (audi, most newer bmw, etc). This long brace essentially connects the frame rails together with a large, thicker piece of metal instead of paper thin sheet metal which bmw thought would be a good idea to connect our subframes to. Instead of putting the stress on the paper thin floor, it will direct it to the frame rails. Unfortunately, what you're asking for from what I can tell is way out of anyones price range. None of us have the means/money to "verify" whether this works. The best way is R&D which is also probably the cheapest. As an engineer (though not mechanical), I think we can all agree that this is far more effective than simple plates and welding. I have used this basic design for years as well as many club racers have effectively done this same thing for more than a decade connecting mounting points/frame rails/roll cages. Rest assured, this is money well spent. Nice product!
Thanks.
it's just when someone makes claims like this, there should be some back up for it. I don't know enough about bracing automotive chassis to decipher if this works well or not so all I have is their word to go blow $600 on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieE46M3 View Post
Hi Guys,
Sorry for the lack of responses. I have family here form overseas at the moment who are currently occupying a lot of my time outside of work. Currently at work now so I’ll have to be brief.

I understand the some may not wish to cut their boot interior. Personally took me an hour to trim the lot and put it back in. used chalk, a Stanley knife, hole saw and a jig saw.
The design couldn’t offer the rigidity it does without the increase in vertical cross section or load distribution without the strategic welds it requires. We believed it to be a necessary compromise in boot space.

Regarding your question ‘icecream’, the consultation was with some of the other engineers I had studied with to gain a second opinion or to gain an alternative perspective. The design was based on engineering principles of second moment of inertia with consideration for load distribution.
Rough calculations were performed comparing the change in second moment of inertia at the fail prone areas to determine a rough proportionate increase in rigidity and to find the ideal material thickness of the RHS member. Of course, several things had to be neglected due to several unknown factors.
I had not gathered any deflection data prior to the kit being installed and thus having testing performed without a control would provide data without comparison. Perhaps in future a willing client will allow such test to be performed. Although, based on feedback, the increase in chassis rigidity is noticeable.

We will be posting a more in depth analysis of the kits performance on our webpage in the coming days.

Thanks for the support ‘TheWarHammer’, a lot of other engineers with E46’s hold similar opinion of the product.
The biggest design flaw we found was the fact the majority of load was distributed outward to the wheel arch and supported by very few spot welds. Once that area fails, subsequent failures occur elsewhere. Reinforcing plates are localised and don’t address such design flaws.

Hi Dr M3an.
Not stirring the pot at all. We appreciate these questions. Our design will be discussed in the analysis we will be posting on our webpage however, to summarise for now;

Our design introduces a new chassis member between the existing in a ‘H’ pattern to distribute the point loads directly to the chassis rails rather than through the wheel arch join.

By incorporating a vertical rib between the new RHS and RACP, we have allowed for a combined bending resistance rather than two members in parallel for a significant increase in rigidity across the entirety of the rear axle carrier panel between chassis rails.

We had allowed for the reinforcing plate atop the RACP to reduce elastic deflection within the top face of the RACP panel as the loads passing through the rib and tube could result in reciprocating flex as it is within the centre of a flat face. This plate also ties into all the welds holding the female thread insert.

The chassis legs plates were intended to offer a larger area to distribute load passing through the RHS member rather than just its perimeter and tie into the factory spot welds etc (from memory it was a requirement in the Australian design rules for modified vehicle chassis). Having removed the section of sheet metal exposing the RACP, we identified the gap between the chassis rail and RACP and decided to extend the plate downward to fill the gap linking the members directly to work with the RHS member and has a small leg that wraps around the vertical face of the RACP to catch the other weld supporting the female thread insert.

All components are laser cut/CNC bent for a precise and consistent fitment.

The similairity between out kit and the one ‘Vince’ offers is that we had both identified that the chassis rail is the ideal area to support the RACP rather than shock towers as it is the strongest member within the local area and achieves minimal compromise on the boot cavity.

I am aware of Vince’s work. It was suggested by other members of this forum that I review his analysis during the design process of this kit.
We reviewed every bit of information we could to contribute to achieving the ideal design. His was one many. Having reviewed his proposal, I had performed my own research on my own car to confirm the opinions and analysis of other across the net.

We had chosen to utilise the through bolt method to apply force directly atop the RACP reinforcing plate to relieve stress on some of the joining welds and bring a portion of the force applied closer to the centroid. The design is not dependent on the extended bolts to transfer forces and would function without. It was simply an additional design feature to further contribute to the function of the design.

I’m sorry my brief reply became a long one. I often get carried away talking about this topic.
And their word is good
When time comes for me to reinforce the sub-frame I will strongly consider this option. Thanks.
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Old Wed, Jan-18-2017, 01:30:19 AM   #25
AussieE46M3
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Default Re: CMP Auto Engineering subframe kit

Morning Guys,

Sorry for my lack of activity. Family left for Canada yesterday so I was able to upload the weld manual last night.

I have tried to not make it excessive and overloading however, it is very informative.

Would love some feedback. If you have any questions about the instructions let me know.

Each order comes with a spiral bound copy included.

Click here for the link: http://cmpautoengineering.com/techni...me-solution-2/

Thanks for your interest Icecream.

I’m hoping to upload the final part of our technical section this weekend to further explain what was lightly discussed earlier. I'll post here when it's available.
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Old Wed, Jan-18-2017, 07:38:22 AM   #26
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Default Re: CMP Auto Engineering subframe kit

Thanks but I'm not seeing a weld manual at the link above.

Edit; sorry, refreshed and now showing.
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Old Wed, Jan-18-2017, 09:34:48 PM   #27
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Default Re: CMP Auto Engineering subframe kit

Hi AussieE46M3!

I'm working with Lang Racing here in California and am interested in using your kit with my car being the guinea pig. Before we place an order, we have a couple of questions:

1) I've reviewed the install guide in detail and there are some clarifications that need to me made and a few diagrams that need to be added to ensure things are installed/welded correctly. Also, some key information should be highlighted so that an installer won't miss it and make a mistake. I've made all of these suggested changes in the form of highlights and comments to your pdf. What is the best method of getting this information to you so that the instructions can be revised? Should I email them to info@cmpautoengineering.com? The biggest omissions in the instructions are welding diagrams for steps 10, 13, 14, 19, 20, 21, and 23 to ensure an installer does not miss any of the intended welding locations. Specifically:

• Step 10 should positively identify all welding locations on the vertical rib. These locations appear to be at all notch locations and at the end points of the rib. I’ve made callouts to your instructions that I suggest you implement.
• Step 13 should provide an image of the plug weld locations on the RACP reinforcement plate and the chassis leg reinforcement plate. A simple 1D image of the top of the RACP plate and the side of the chassis leg plate with callouts for the plug weld locations will suffice. An installer might think only the round holes require plug welds, and not also the rectangular holes. That is why it’s important to call them out.
• Step 14 provides an excellent visual for the RACP reinforcement plate stitch welds. However, there is no equivalent photo showing the weld locations for the chassis leg reinforcement plates.
• Step 19 should show the fillet weld locations for both the tubes and the RHS clearly in Figure 35. Figure 35 shows the tube welds clearly, but not the RHS welds. I made callouts to the diagram that I suggest you implement.
• Step 20 should include callouts for the stitch weld locations directly on Figure 36. These are not clearly visible and can be confused with the welds on the RACP reinforcement plate based on the image provided. Figure 36 also shows stich welds on the chassis leg reinforcement plates that were not present in Steps 19 or 14. Were these welds supposed to have been performed in Step 14 since it calls for a continuous weld over the entire perimeter of the chassis leg reinforcement plates?
• Step 21 – I have no clue where the small outer ribs (Part 7) are installed based on the textual description. A visual diagram or photo is needed.
• Step 23 – This step should include photos of each of the four sub steps necessary to re-install the floor panel that was removed in step 2. At minimum, show the finished product so that the installer knows what the final result should look like.

2) How are the 160mm long M12x1.5 bolts installed? Are they installed like the factory bolts by installing them from underneath the car? I only ask because it is not clear if the bolts install under the car with the nylon nuts installed inside the trunk, or if they are installed the other way around.

3) Can you provide steel nuts instead of the nylon nuts? I'm concerned the nylon nuts are not up to the job. These nuts effectively secure the connection between the RACP, the sub-frame, and the part you call the RHS. If the nylon nuts fail, it’s as if there is no connection at all when tensile loads are applied to the rear subframe. Steel would be a better material choice especially considering we are torqueing them down to 77Nm (57 ft lbs). I'm concerned just the act of simply torquing the nuts down will snap them.

2) How many hours should a shop charge to perform the install? After reading through the instructions, it seems that someone familiar with the car could perform the job in a single day or less. It certainly seems that someone very familiar with the kit and access to a lift and proper welding equipment could do the job in 5-6 hours. Could you offer feedback on this?
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Old Wed, Jan-18-2017, 10:10:28 PM   #28
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Default Re: CMP Auto Engineering subframe kit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beamrup View Post
Hi AussieE46M3!

I'm working with Lang Racing here in California and am interested in using your kit with my car being the guinea pig. Before we place an order, we have a couple of questions:

1) I've reviewed the install guide in detail and there are some clarifications that need to me made and a few diagrams that need to be added to ensure things are installed/welded correctly. Also, some key information should be highlighted so that an installer won't miss it and make a mistake. I've made all of these suggested changes in the form of highlights and comments to your pdf. What is the best method of getting this information to you so that the instructions can be revised? Should I email them to info@cmpautoengineering.com? The biggest omissions in the instructions are welding diagrams for steps 10, 13, 14, 19, 20, 21, and 23 to ensure an installer does not miss any of the intended welding locations. Specifically:

•Step 10 should positively identify all welding locations on the vertical rib. These locations appear to be at all notch locations and at the end points of the rib. I’ve made callouts to your instructions that I suggest you implement.
•Step 13 should provide an image of the plug weld locations on the RACP reinforcement plate and the chassis leg reinforcement plate. A simple 1D image of the top of the RACP plate and the side of the chassis leg plate with callouts for the plug weld locations will suffice. An installer might think only the round holes require plug welds, and not also the rectangular holes. That is why it’s important to call them out.
•Step 14 provides an excellent visual for the RACP reinforcement plate stitch welds. However, there is no equivalent photo showing the weld locations for the chassis leg reinforcement plates.
•Step 19 should show the fillet weld locations for both the tubes and the RHS clearly in Figure 35. Figure 35 shows the tube welds clearly, but not the RHS welds. I made callouts to the diagram that I suggest you implement.
•Step 20 should include callouts for the stitch weld locations directly on Figure 36. These are not clearly visible and can be confused with the welds on the RACP reinforcement plate based on the image provided. Figure 36 also shows stich welds on the chassis leg reinforcement plates that were not present in Steps 19 or 14. Were these welds supposed to have been performed in Step 14 since it calls for a continuous weld over the entire perimeter of the chassis leg reinforcement plates?
•Step 21 – I have no clue where the small outer ribs (Part 7) are installed based on the textual description. A visual diagram or photo is needed.
•Step 23 – This step should include photos of each of the four sub steps necessary to re-install the floor panel that was removed in step 2. At minimum, show the finished product so that the installer knows what the final result should look like.

2) How are the 160mm long M12x1.5 bolts installed? Are they installed like the factory bolts by installing them from underneath the car? I only ask because it is not clear if the bolts install under the car with the nylon nuts installed inside the trunk, or if they are installed the other way around.

3) Can you provide steel nuts instead of the nylon nuts? I'm concerned the nylon nuts are not up to the job. These nuts effectively secure the connection between the RACP, the sub-frame, and the part you call the RHS. If the nylon nuts fail, it’s as if there is no connection at all when tensile loads are applied to the rear subframe. Steel would be a better material choice especially considering we are torqueing them down to 77Nm (57 ft lbs). I'm concerned just the act of simply torquing the nuts down will snap them.

2) How many hours should a shop charge to perform the install? After reading through the instructions, it seems that someone familiar with the car could perform the job in a single day or less. It certainly seems that someone very familiar with the kit and access to a lift and proper welding equipment could do the job in 5-6 hours. Could you offer feedback on this?


Regarding the nuts, I believe he means ny-lock (or whatever they're called) steel nuts. Theres a nylon insert stopping them from backing out, unlike the self locking collar nuts (sourced from BMW) that I include in my kits.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Old Wed, Jan-18-2017, 11:39:50 PM   #29
AussieE46M3
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Default Re: CMP Auto Engineering subframe kit

Quote:
Hi AussieE46M3!

I'm working with Lang Racing here in California and am interested in using your kit with my car being the guinea pig. Before we place an order, we have a couple of questions:

1) I've reviewed the install guide in detail and there are some clarifications that need to me made and a few diagrams that need to be added to ensure things are installed/welded correctly. Also, some key information should be highlighted so that an installer won't miss it and make a mistake. I've made all of these suggested changes in the form of highlights and comments to your pdf. What is the best method of getting this information to you so that the instructions can be revised? Should I email them to info@cmpautoengineering.com? The biggest omissions in the instructions are welding diagrams for steps 10, 13, 14, 19, 20, 21, and 23 to ensure an installer does not miss any of the intended welding locations. Specifically:

• Step 10 should positively identify all welding locations on the vertical rib. These locations appear to be at all notch locations and at the end points of the rib. I’ve made callouts to your instructions that I suggest you implement.
• Step 13 should provide an image of the plug weld locations on the RACP reinforcement plate and the chassis leg reinforcement plate. A simple 1D image of the top of the RACP plate and the side of the chassis leg plate with callouts for the plug weld locations will suffice. An installer might think only the round holes require plug welds, and not also the rectangular holes. That is why it’s important to call them out.
• Step 14 provides an excellent visual for the RACP reinforcement plate stitch welds. However, there is no equivalent photo showing the weld locations for the chassis leg reinforcement plates.
• Step 19 should show the fillet weld locations for both the tubes and the RHS clearly in Figure 35. Figure 35 shows the tube welds clearly, but not the RHS welds. I made callouts to the diagram that I suggest you implement.
• Step 20 should include callouts for the stitch weld locations directly on Figure 36. These are not clearly visible and can be confused with the welds on the RACP reinforcement plate based on the image provided. Figure 36 also shows stich welds on the chassis leg reinforcement plates that were not present in Steps 19 or 14. Were these welds supposed to have been performed in Step 14 since it calls for a continuous weld over the entire perimeter of the chassis leg reinforcement plates?
• Step 21 – I have no clue where the small outer ribs (Part 7) are installed based on the textual description. A visual diagram or photo is needed.
• Step 23 – This step should include photos of each of the four sub steps necessary to re-install the floor panel that was removed in step 2. At minimum, show the finished product so that the installer knows what the final result should look like.

2) How are the 160mm long M12x1.5 bolts installed? Are they installed like the factory bolts by installing them from underneath the car? I only ask because it is not clear if the bolts install under the car with the nylon nuts installed inside the trunk, or if they are installed the other way around.

3) Can you provide steel nuts instead of the nylon nuts? I'm concerned the nylon nuts are not up to the job. These nuts effectively secure the connection between the RACP, the sub-frame, and the part you call the RHS. If the nylon nuts fail, it’s as if there is no connection at all when tensile loads are applied to the rear subframe. Steel would be a better material choice especially considering we are torqueing them down to 77Nm (57 ft lbs). I'm concerned just the act of simply torquing the nuts down will snap them.

2) How many hours should a shop charge to perform the install? After reading through the instructions, it seems that someone familiar with the car could perform the job in a single day or less. It certainly seems that someone very familiar with the kit and access to a lift and proper welding equipment could do the job in 5-6 hours. Could you offer feedback on this?
Morning Beamrup,

Thank you for your interest.

As mentioned in the notes section, the document is considered live and open to recommendations, corrections or further illustration. I would love to see what changes you’d like to see. We are wanting to be as user friendly as possible so we really value this sort of input.

Yep, info@cmpautoengineering.com would be perfect.

For steps 10 – 20, I can definitely put a marker over the existing images to better identify the areas requiring attention as you have suggested.
The installation shown was the guinea pig installation and the installation process detailed in the report was based on what was learnt from the install photographed. I had mentioned in the note section that the welds pictured may not perfectly match the description however, I can add reminders throughout the process to eliminate that doubt.
I only supply the kits, I don’t perform the installations so the images of my own are the only images I currently have.

Step 21, - I agree, I can provide a photo of that no problem.

Step 23, - My own car does not have that panel reinstalled to help show locals who are interested the entirety of the kit so I honestly do not have any images of that piece installed I’m afraid.

Yes, the bolts are installed from beneath much like the originals. I can add further description to help that.

Regarding the nuts, Vince is correct. They are a high tensile steel nut with a nylon locking insert. They’re called nylon lock nuts here. May differ elsewhere.

I had opted for the Nylon lock nuts as they’re designed to not come undone when experiencing vibrations unlike conventional nuts. Given the bolts are directly linked to the subframe, the road vibrations and things would be getting transferred through. A nut without a nylon insert is more likely to come undone.

I would agree with your estimate. One full day and the job should be completed. Perhaps painting and things will add additional time as probably not best done when still hot.

The welding itself was a little over 2 hours’ worth. The most time consuming aspect was the prep work. I’m an engineer not a fabricator so it was done in a DIY fashion using small air tools and a portable compressor. A fully kitted workshop with higher quality machines could possibly have it done sooner.
A hoist would definitely make removing the exhaust and drilling the holes quicker.

Last edited by AussieE46M3; Wed, Jan-18-2017 at 11:50:03 PM.
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Old Thu, Jan-19-2017, 12:15:02 AM   #30
Beamrup
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Default Re: CMP Auto Engineering subframe kit

Quote:
Morning Beamrup,

Thank you for your interest.

As mentioned in the notes section, the document is considered live and open to recommendations, corrections or further illustration. I would love to see what changes you’d like to see. We are wanting to be as user friendly as possible so we really value this sort of input.

Yep, info@cmpautoengineering.com would be perfect.

For steps 10 – 20, I can definitely put a marker over the existing images to better identify the areas requiring attention as you have suggested.
The installation shown was the guinea pig installation and the installation process detailed in the report was based on what was learnt from the install photographed. I had mentioned in the note section that the welds pictured may not perfectly match the description however, I can add reminders throughout the process to eliminate that doubt.
I only supply the kits, I don’t perform the installations so the images of my own are the only images I currently have.

Step 21, - I agree, I can provide a photo of that no problem.

Step 23, - My own car does not have that panel reinstalled to help show locals who are interested the entirety of the kit so I honestly do not have any images of that piece installed I’m afraid.

Yes, the bolts are installed from beneath much like the originals. I can add further description to help that.

Regarding the nuts, Vince is correct. They are a high tensile steel nut with a nylon locking insert. They’re called nylon lock nuts here. May differ elsewhere.

I had opted for the Nylon lock nuts as they’re designed to not come undone when experiencing vibrations unlike conventional nuts. Given the bolts are directly linked to the subframe, the road vibrations and things would be getting transferred through. A nut without a nylon insert is more likely to come undone.

I would agree with your estimate. One full day and the job should be completed. Perhaps painting and things will add additional time as probably not best done when still hot.

The welding itself was a little over 2 hours’ worth. The most time consuming aspect was the prep work. I’m an engineer not a fabricator so it was done in a DIY fashion using small air tools and a portable compressor. A fully kitted workshop with higher quality machines could possibly have it done sooner.
A hoist would definitely make removing the exhaust and drilling the holes quicker.
Excellent! I'm sending over the comments and suggested changes to you now. Please incorporate as many of the changes as you can and re-post. When I perform my install I'll see if I can provide photos for Step 23.

These must be the nuts you're referring to? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyloc_nut If so, I can see how they would do the job. I'd still loc-tite them anyways. :p
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Discussing CMP Auto Engineering subframe kit in the E46 M3 (2001-2006) Forum - Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006. at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)