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E46 M3 (2001-2006) Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006.


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Old Wed, Mar-23-2016, 05:43:08 PM   #41
VinceSE2
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Default Vince RACP reinforcement/load relief- Install w/o welding and completely drop...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SliM3 View Post
Vince:



Do you have specs on the blind rivets you're using? Are they typical off-the-shelf from the hardware store?



So please accept this as professional feedback. IMHO, I don't think this current set-up lends itself to a joint equal, or close to the shear strength when compared to the welded joint it's designed to replace.



The main issue I'm concerned with is the spacing of the rivets. Blind rivets typically aren't as strong as solid shanks, unless you're using specialty one's like hi-shear Cherrymax's or Cherrylock's etc. Because of this, spacing is very critical in order to achieve a structure to sub-structure joint that will offer close to the strength of a welded joint.



Industry standard riveting practice for lap joints are as follows:

Edge Spacing: Distance from the edge of the material to the center of the nearest rivet hole; Typically the minimum distance is 2-times (2D) the diameter of the rivet shank.



Rivet Length: The length of the shank extending past the material should be no more than 1.5 times (1.5D) the diameter of the shank. The thickness of both materials being riveted is your grip length.



Spacing: The distance between the centers of the rivet holes should be no more than 6-times (6D) the diameter of the shank.



Mathematically figuring all this out is pretty simple:

example: row of rivets along a 6-inch side, using 1/8-inch (0.125") shank rivets


  • Distance between first and last rivet:

    6 - ((2D - 2D) * 0.125)

    6 - (4 * 0.125)

    5.5-inch


  • 6D Rivet spacing (6 * 0.125 = 0.75):

    5.5 / 0.75 = 7.333 (round down to 7)

    5.5 / 7

    0.7857-inch



A few other suggestions would be to keep hole diameters very tight. In other words you don't want the rivet just falling into the hole, but minimal drag requiring you to push the rivet into the hole.



Ensure that the two panels are held together as tight as possible before setting the rivet. Typically we use cleco clamps for this, but I understand the investment in such tools is beyond the scope of your alternate installation method. Another way of doing this is using self-tap sheet metal screws to initially position & clamp the work piece. Then, systematically remove the screws one at a time, drill the hole, and set your rivet.





I also suggest performing a "wet installation" of the rivets. Simply coat the rivet shank and underneath the head with an RTV type sealant, then install. This will totally seal the hole from creeping and dissimilar metal corrosion.



Again, I'm not trying to be Debby Downer or anything, and what you're offering the boards is absolutely great!! I just wanted to offer a bit of industry experience to improve your product, and to reduce a bit of your liability should the installation be performed by someone with very little knowledge of primary & secondary structure jointing.

Thanks for the detailed and excellent feed back!
As I haven't done the write up yet it's probably not obvious that I'm doing a rivet + epoxy install, so the rivets are mostly meant to clamp and hold the plates to the chassis while the epoxy is curing.

But as a safety measure I still opted for a higher end (of the shelf) steel rivet (not stainless).
I'm using a short 3.0 mm rivet where the 1mm plates/sheet metal bonds to the 0.75mm body. Drilling 3.1mm as per the directions.
A 3.2mm larger grip length rivet with more clamping force where I'm bonding the plates to the bar and/or there is a need for larger grip length. Drilling 3.25mm as per the directions.
And finally a 4.8mm large grip length rivet where the bar end plates are bonded to the chassis legs. Drilling 4.8mm as per the instructions.
The chassis legs are made up of two layers of sheet metal in that particular area. And the layers have a slightly irregular distance between each other. So to be able to grip both layers I'm using the a large grip length rivet.

Unfortunately I cant find any English specifications for the rivets right now.

But here is the specs of the Epoxy.
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1819252.pdf

I make sure I have a snug fit between the surfaces (while still making room for the epoxy), then remove all the paint, clean the surface and then let the angle grinder "bounce around" on the bonding surface to get a "grippy" surface. I apply the epoxy with the applicator gun and then smear it out with a stiff paint brush to make sure it's adhering to the complete surface and has a reasonably even thickness.











What do you think of this?

I'll gladly adjust the rivet number and spacing if you still believe it's needed.

Thanks again for your input!



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Last edited by VinceSE2; Wed, Mar-23-2016 at 05:48:27 PM.
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Old Wed, Mar-23-2016, 06:35:43 PM   #42
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Default Re: Vince RACP reinforcement/load relief- Install w/o welding and completely drop...

Excellent work Vince, Thank you for such a valuable innovation to the M3 community. I'm very interested in this setup but I have a question in regards to the rear bar mounting points. Prior to your invention I have went with the standard foam method for reinforcing the rear mounts on both sides of the car. Since I have done that would I be able to use your bar for the rear mounts. I imagine if I cut open Trunk cavity it would be full of cured foam and there would not be any room to install cross bar? Or maybe I'm wrong please elaborate, if so then I guess my only option would be for the front mounting points which I have not done any reinforcements to yet, correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks

Radek
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Old Wed, Mar-23-2016, 07:11:26 PM   #43
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Default Re: Vince RACP reinforcement/load relief- Install w/o welding and completely drop...

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Old Wed, Mar-23-2016, 10:28:05 PM   #44
VinceSE2
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Default Re: Vince RACP reinforcement/load relief- Install w/o welding and completely drop...

Quote:
Originally Posted by radekxpl View Post
Excellent work Vince, Thank you for such a valuable innovation to the M3 community. I'm very interested in this setup but I have a question in regards to the rear bar mounting points. Prior to your invention I have went with the standard foam method for reinforcing the rear mounts on both sides of the car. Since I have done that would I be able to use your bar for the rear mounts. I imagine if I cut open Trunk cavity it would be full of cured foam and there would not be any room to install cross bar? Or maybe I'm wrong please elaborate, if so then I guess my only option would be for the front mounting points which I have not done any reinforcements to yet, correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks

Radek

Thank you very much Radek, I very much appreciate praise like this!

If the foam has been injected per the BMW instructions it'll be confined in the cavity made up of layer #2 and #3, surrounding the mount #4.



My bar goes between layers #3 and #1 as seen here.


So in that case you are perfectly fine.

But unfortunately there has been incorrect information floating around in this community saying the foam should be injected into the "lower" cavity (this is correct) AND the upper cavity (this is incorrect) the so called upper cavity has a much larger volume than the lower cavity as it reaches into the chassis legs as seen here



And here



There would need to be many cartridges of foam to fill that volume. And just pouring a small amount in there is frankly a waste of foam and money.

AND it would make it more difficult, but not impossible, to install my bar.

Just looking into the factory holes of layer #1 should easily tell if you have any foam in the upper cavity.

If that's what you have, I would cut it open (as shown in my pictures) and remove that cured foam. I believe it should come of reasonably easy with a chisel as the surfaces were most probably dirty and had cavity wax on them prior to the foam being injected.

I hope that answered your question. Please let me know if there is anything else I could do for you.


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Old Thu, Mar-24-2016, 01:25:51 PM   #45
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Default Re: Vince RACP reinforcement/load relief- Install w/o welding and completely drop...

Quote:
Originally Posted by VinceSE2 View Post
Thanks for the detailed and excellent feed back!
As I haven't done the write up yet it's probably not obvious that I'm doing a rivet + epoxy install, so the rivets are mostly meant to clamp and hold the plates to the chassis while the epoxy is curing.

But as a safety measure I still opted for a higher end (of the shelf) steel rivet (not stainless).
I'm using a short 3.0 mm rivet where the 1mm plates/sheet metal bonds to the 0.75mm body. Drilling 3.1mm as per the directions.
A 3.2mm larger grip length rivet with more clamping force where I'm bonding the plates to the bar and/or there is a need for larger grip length. Drilling 3.25mm as per the directions.
And finally a 4.8mm large grip length rivet where the bar end plates are bonded to the chassis legs. Drilling 4.8mm as per the instructions.
The chassis legs are made up of two layers of sheet metal in that particular area. And the layers have a slightly irregular distance between each other. So to be able to grip both layers I'm using the a large grip length rivet.

Unfortunately I cant find any English specifications for the rivets right now.

But here is the specs of the Epoxy.
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1819252.pdf

I make sure I have a snug fit between the surfaces (while still making room for the epoxy), then remove all the paint, clean the surface and then let the angle grinder "bounce around" on the bonding surface to get a "grippy" surface. I apply the epoxy with the applicator gun and then smear it out with a stiff paint brush to make sure it's adhering to the complete surface and has a reasonably even thickness.











What do you think of this?

I'll gladly adjust the rivet number and spacing if you still believe it's needed.

Thanks again for your input!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hey no problem Vince. I know you're an Engineer so figured you'd appreciate the discussion

I was under the impression that the epoxy application was optional, but I see now it'll be part of your accomplishment instructions. Good move in my opinion, and with that being said, I see no issues with how you're utilizing the rivets.

One thing I would suggest as part of your metal surface prep is using some sort of Zinc Phosphate metal prep (see pdf attachment for reference). It will provide a solid foundation perfect for bonding. I don't know what's available to you guys on the other side of the pond, but guys here in the states can easily acquire products like POR-15 Metal Prep and After Blast - Metal Prep.

Excellent work BTW! It's efforts from members like you that truly take the anxiety out of ownership, and make this an enjoyable platform. Sometimes this car can leave a brotha like:
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File Type: pdf BONDERITE M-ZN 1421-A.pdf (49.2 KB, 11 views)
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Old Thu, Mar-24-2016, 02:44:57 PM   #46
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Default Re: Vince RACP reinforcement/load relief- Install w/o welding and completely drop...

Wow, what a cool thread. Looking forward to seeing some reviews of the product. Good work. I say this all of the time - "there has never been a better time to own an e46M then now".

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Old Thu, Mar-24-2016, 03:22:20 PM   #47
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Default Re: Vince RACP reinforcement/load relief- Install w/o welding and completely drop...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SliM3 View Post
Hey no problem Vince. I know you're an Engineer so figured you'd appreciate the discussion

I was under the impression that the epoxy application was optional, but I see now it'll be part of your accomplishment instructions. Good move in my opinion, and with that being said, I see no issues with how you're utilizing the rivets.

One thing I would suggest as part of your metal surface prep is using some sort of Zinc Phosphate metal prep (see pdf attachment for reference). It will provide a solid foundation perfect for bonding. I don't know what's available to you guys on the other side of the pond, but guys here in the states can easily acquire products like POR-15 Metal Prep and After Blast - Metal Prep.

Excellent work BTW! It's efforts from members like you that truly take the anxiety out of ownership, and make this an enjoyable platform. Sometimes this car can leave a brotha like:

Excellent. It's funny you mention POR-15 Metal Prep, as I painted the bar with POR-15 Rust (something) I did prep the bar (including the end plates) and the plates I've epoxied under the bar with the metal prep.
One can just about see the dull etched surface between the rough surfaces from the angle grinder in this picture


And the picture of the endplate in the earlier post. But as the POR-15 Metal Prep instructions says it should be rinsed off with water, once it's done, I choose not to apply it to the car body surfaces because it just didn't feel right to pour water into the car when there's small metal shavings (from cutting and drilling) trapped inside cavities making it nearly impossible to remove those metal shavings. Even with the vacuum cleaner I use to remove most of the paint flakes, dirt and metal shavings.

So I did the angle grinder thing on the car body surfaces, and then did the same to the surfaces I had treated with POR-15 Metal Prep (in an effort to obtain the same surface structure on both plates).

But in hindsight perhaps I should have first done the angle grinder rough surface, and then added a light spray of the POR-15 Metal Prep without rinsing the car body/chassis surfaces?

What do you think about not rinsing it off from the body/chassis surfaces, would that work? Or would it be better to not apply the POR-15 Metal Prep if it's not rinsed off?

We are probably getting a bit too detailed here, but I do appreciate your professional advice.


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Old Thu, Mar-24-2016, 03:50:19 PM   #48
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Default Re: Vince RACP reinforcement/load relief- Install w/o welding and completely drop...

Quote:
Originally Posted by VinceSE2 View Post
What do you think about not rinsing it off from the body/chassis surfaces, would that work? Or would it be better to not apply the POR-15 Metal Prep if it's not rinsed off?

We are probably getting a bit too detailed here, but I do appreciate your professional advice.


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All you're really doing with the rinse is neutralizing the chemical reaction (etching), and you could easily accomplish this with a thorough wipe down using distilled water and a sponge.

If you'd like I can put together an installation document to your liking. There's more than enough source information in your posts & threads to really author a concise document, including general info and accomplishment tasks. I'll throw a little draft together for you.
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Old Thu, Mar-24-2016, 03:55:50 PM   #49
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Default Re: Vince RACP reinforcement/load relief- Install w/o welding and completely drop...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SliM3 View Post
All you're really doing with the rinse is neutralizing the chemical reaction (etching), and you could easily accomplish this with a thorough wipe down using distilled water and a sponge.

If you'd like I can put together an installation document to your liking. There's more than enough source information in your posts & threads to really author a concise document, including general info and accomplishment tasks. I'll throw a little draft together for you.
It seems like the two of you should join forces to make the instructions/procedure document for the kit since you are both so experienced with this stuff

I am an engineer and you two make me feel pretty stupid.
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Old Tue, Mar-29-2016, 09:34:25 AM   #50
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Default Re: Vince RACP reinforcement/load relief- Install w/o welding and completely drop...

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pm sent

As I just noticed that my messages to member Flow had not reached him I kindly ask anyone who feels I have not responded to please contact me at vincent.pihlstrom@gmail.com

Thanks!


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Discussing Vince RACP reinforcement/load relief- Install w/o welding and completely drop... in the E46 M3 (2001-2006) Forum - Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006. at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)