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E46 M3 (2001-2006) Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006.


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Old Sat, Oct-13-2018, 05:31:00 PM   #271
nasieg
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

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Originally Posted by EricSMG View Post
The GTPP steering is hopelessly numb and the weight is all wrong (Obioban and I disagree on weight - I think it's HUGELY important to get the right feel). Part of the problem is the shitty steering wheel. The 350 probably feels a bit better BUT I've read that it suffers from tram-lining due to such wide front wheels/tires. But I would be shocked if the 350/R actually has "good" steering.... I'm betting okay at best (could be wrong).... Ford just doesn't operate at that level of detail. But again, so what if it's not that great? It's about the package.

For the record, on steering, the E9XM has a very funky progressive weighting system. The feedback is excellent but the variable weight algorithm in that car is very awkward and so the overall steering 'package' is actually kind of a let down for me. It's very direct since solid joint (good), excellent feedback since hydro (good), way too fast of a ratio (bad) and funky weight (bad). For reference, compare that to the F80Z: very direct (good), meh feedback since electric (bad), perfect ratio (good) and perfect variable weighting system (good). The 46M is not very direct (bad), excellent feedback (good) perfect ratio (good) and perfect weight (good). The F80 and 46M have better steering packages than the E9XM, but arrive at things differently.

Regular M2 is probably a great option - you just don't get the pimp daddy S55 motor.



Good input on the steering. I have to admit that I am not THAT sensitive to it. While I feel the difference between the cars, it doesn't hinder my abilities to enjoy them. I agree the e46 could be a bit more direct, other wise it is perfect. My GTi feels more direct, which I really noticed when I still had the e30 M3. I actually had to change the steering rack on that car because it was such a slow ratio.......and to think that many felt that it had the best steering for a long time. i guess it was more in the sense of feel. It goes to show you that directness or steering ratio is evolving and feel has taken a dive due to ESP, but is coming back with better software calibration. I would guess that soon it will be a non issue anymore.


The GTI with EPS and FWD feels already remarkably good, never once thought, dang it I wish it had hydraulic steering.
Our family Acura MDX (just for arguments sake) sucks in steering feel. The weight changes mid corner and give no feedback whatsoever. I know it is an SUV, but how they can call that SHAWD (super handling AWD) is beyond me ;-).


To sum up, the steering weight is probably more important to me than the directness and feel. I think if the weight is right, it feels pretty good to me, and directness should not be too far off on a modern car.


Yeah, S55 is a pimp motor, but the sound wise it is lacking big time.
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Old Sat, Oct-13-2018, 05:40:39 PM   #272
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

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Yeah, S55 is a pimp motor, but the sound wise it is lacking big time.
Yep, it can be very bad for sure, but mostly mitigated with a good exhaust system.

But here's the thing: it's a great example of form following function. The reason it makes all those funny noises/farts/etc. is the advanced anti-lag system. It doesn't have a BOV. Instead, BMW keeps the throttle body open, changes cam timing and lets the excess pressure (upon throttle lift) blow through the motor and keep the turbos spinning. It sounds the way it does because they prioritized driver engagement and response over sound.

That said, I've always thought the standard M2 has an old-school BMW sound = very cool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nasieg View Post
To sum up, the steering weight is probably more important to me than the directness and feel. I think if the weight is right, it feels pretty good to me, and directness should not be too far off on a modern car.
Yep, for me the directness (now that I've experienced high levels of it) combined with proper weight and ratio is most important. Feedback is important, but I only need a low volume. In fact, too much feedback distracts me - when the steering wheel starts snapping back in my hands that's too much.
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Old Sat, Oct-13-2018, 06:03:48 PM   #273
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

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Jeez... and I thought I was the most curmudgeonly person here this side of the Stig. And I'm very much in the anti-new BMW M camp.
Happy to be the King of the Curmudgeons.

Realistically though, I just have a list of things I find desirable in a car, and I donít compromise.

Feedback
Manual transmission
N/A
RWD
Reasonably light
Serviceable
Well made
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Old Sat, Oct-13-2018, 06:10:20 PM   #274
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

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Happy to be the King of the Curmudgeons.

Realistically though, I just have a list of things I find desirable in a car, and I don’t compromise.

Feedback
Manual transmission
N/A
RWD
Reasonably light
Serviceable
Well made
What about performance, calibration (geometry/balance/dynamics/response/etc.) and excitement?
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Old Sat, Oct-13-2018, 06:15:04 PM   #275
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

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Originally Posted by TheSt|G View Post
Happy to be the King of the Curmudgeons.



Realistically though, I just have a list of things I find desirable in a car, and I donít compromise.



Feedback

Manual transmission

N/A

RWD

Reasonably light

Serviceable

Well made


Well made? Subframe, VANOS cough cough.......j/k......i guess put that in serviceable column


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Old Sat, Oct-13-2018, 07:57:36 PM   #276
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

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Originally Posted by EricSMG View Post
Yep, it can be very bad for sure, but mostly mitigated with a good exhaust system.

But here's the thing: it's a great example of form following function. The reason it makes all those funny noises/farts/etc. is the advanced anti-lag system. It doesn't have a BOV. Instead, BMW keeps the throttle body open, changes cam timing and lets the excess pressure (upon throttle lift) blow through the motor and keep the turbos spinning. It sounds the way it does because they prioritized driver engagement and response over sound.

That said, I've always thought the standard M2 has an old-school BMW sound = very cool.
THat all makes sense why they did this. Bye the same token you could argue for DSG over a manual, especially on a turbo. You really don't want to lose that boost during shifting. Not sure how that all feels and comes together with a manual? I can only speak from my experience in the Vee Dub and the DSG works in harmony with the turbo engine for sure. I never miss the manual in that car, even though I prefer a stick over an "automatic"





Quote:
Originally Posted by EricSMG View Post

Yep, for me the directness (now that I've experienced high levels of it) combined with proper weight and ratio is most important. Feedback is important, but I only need a low volume. In fact, too much feedback distracts me - when the steering wheel starts snapping back in my hands that's too much.
I'm with you on that one.
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Old Sun, Oct-14-2018, 05:13:18 AM   #277
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

This gold.
But I'm glad BMW is at least aware of how the E46 M3 is considered the pinnacle. The thing Klaus said about how the new 3 series is about hiding the sensation of speed, or something to that effect, is the opposite of what enthusiasts want to hear, lol!
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Old Sun, Oct-14-2018, 07:02:31 AM   #278
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSt|G View Post
Happy to be the King of the Curmudgeons.



Realistically though, I just have a list of things I find desirable in a car, and I donít compromise.



Feedback

Manual transmission

N/A

RWD

Reasonably light

Serviceable

Well made


The e46 has only 3 of your listed things
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Old Sun, Oct-14-2018, 01:44:32 PM   #279
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

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Originally Posted by EricSMG View Post
What about performance, calibration (geometry/balance/dynamics/response/etc.) and excitement?
IDGAF about performance. Calibration typically is rolled into feedback for the most part, and excitement is a result of the list being met.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nasieg View Post
Well made? Subframe, VANOS cough cough.......j/k......i guess put that in serviceable column
Those are easily remedied and otherwise the car is pretty stout. Trans is borderline indestructible, the motor has a huge service life for one that revs to 8k, the interior materials are all nice to interact with, and so on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M spec View Post
The e46 has only 3 of your listed things
No, but ok champ.
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Old Sun, Oct-14-2018, 01:53:53 PM   #280
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

As much as I like the car, I would say the VANOS and 'subframe' issues automatically exclude it from being considered well made, even if they're fixable.
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Discussing BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts in the E46 M3 (2001-2006) Forum - Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006. at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)