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E46 M3 (2001-2006) Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006.


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Old Sat, Oct-13-2018, 03:44:09 AM   #251
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

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Originally Posted by BTB View Post
Agreed I could go for an F80 ZCP as a daily though, if I was loaded. It gets me excited in that daily-people-hauler-muscle-car role, but not as a weekend toy.

I was just mentioning Porsche because there was talk of the e46 M3 being effectively the best sports car that non-Rockefellers could get their hands on. I think you and I are on the same page
Agreed
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Old Sat, Oct-13-2018, 03:59:27 AM   #252
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

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Originally Posted by BTB View Post
Agreed I could go for an F80 ZCP as a daily though, if I was loaded. It gets me excited in that daily-people-hauler-muscle-car role, but not as a weekend toy.

I was just mentioning Porsche because there was talk of the e46 M3 being effectively the best sports car that non-Rockefellers could get their hands on. I think you and I are on the same page
Totally agree. F80 ZCP to put miles on and a GT3 for the special weekend car. Personally, the only car that I feel would be a natural step-up from my car would be a GT3/4. They continue the recipe that I have come to love so much, but in a modern, much improved, package.
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Old Sat, Oct-13-2018, 04:17:12 AM   #253
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

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Originally Posted by Dr M3an M3 View Post
Totally agree. F80 ZCP to put miles on and a GT3 for the special weekend car. Personally, the only car that I feel would be a natural step-up from my car would be a GT3/4. They continue the recipe that I have come to love so much, but in a modern, much improved, package.
GT2's not good enough for ya?

Agreed though, I'm hoping the prices of 997.2's will eventually drop (pretty doubtful)
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Old Sat, Oct-13-2018, 05:09:01 AM   #254
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

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Originally Posted by Kwakjoe View Post
GT2's not good enough for ya?

Agreed though, I'm hoping the prices of 997.2's will eventually drop (pretty doubtful)
GT2 is excellent (not that I've driven one), but the consensus that I've gathered from those that have driven the GT2 and GT3 back-to-back and or the GT2RS compared to the GT3RS seems to suggest the same sentiments we are talking about with regards to the CSL. While the GT2/RS is the more capable car when it comes to competitive lap-times, the character of the naturally aspirated motor in the GT3 makes for a more pleasurable, rewarding, and "special" driving experience despite being the "slower" of the two. It's kind of like favoring a traditional MT vs PDK. PDK is EXCELLENT, but despite the compromises of a traditional manual, people prefer it for what it adds to the driving experience. Naturally aspirated vs turbo seems to share that same favorability.

Personally I like both NA and Turbo motors....they are just so different. I mean, what is not to love about a big single turbo 2JZ!? In a lot of ways, BMW of today reminds me of modern versions of 90s JDM cars in purpose with the adoption of turbos. There is nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't scratch the same itch from the void that no longer offering wicked naturally aspirated motorsports engines as left. ...When it comes to Porsche and ///M, (or Ferrari and Lambo), I want a high-revving NA motor option...Not (just) turbos. Just the noise a high-revving NA motor makes alone is worth the trade off in performance.

I mean, just listen to those noises:

It's too bad you only get one choice with the M2/M3/M4 in terms of aspiration. Imagine if there were the equivalent trim levels for M cars as their are for the GT series Porsches. Imagine a world were there were both the equivalent of an M2 GT3RS (High-revving NA) and an M2 Turbo S (FI). The closest BMW has to that would be a CSL and a 1M (which is also an excellent car, imo).

But let's be real, I'd be MORE than happy with any GT series Porsche. Hell, even the 997 Turbo S I got to experience was more than incredible. Entirely different league than a F8x M3/M4. I love BMW....But they are far from the level Porsche has gotten to. The fact that for sub $20k you can get a taste of the experience of a $100-500k Porsche GT car with it's High-rev NA motors...that to me is incredible. It makes no sense that our cars can be purchased as cheaply as they can. Anything remotely close to that experience is 10 times the price tag at the least. One day if I can afford to, I will step up into that platform, but for now my car punches well above it's waist in terms of experience it provides me per dollar.
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Last edited by Dr M3an M3; Sat, Oct-13-2018 at 05:23:10 AM.
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Old Sat, Oct-13-2018, 05:17:24 AM   #255
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

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Originally Posted by Drewster View Post
It's interesting you made this about Porsche? For the record, if I had the cash for an M4 or one of its variants, I would drive right bast the BMW dealership and grab a Porsche.

I honestly don't have strong feelings about the M4.. it's a nice car.. it just doesn't feel special. As the article alludes, it seems like BMW worked to make a nice bavarian Nissan GTR. Big on speed, tech, impressive on paper.. just not very involving. I don't see why folks with that cash wouldn't get a ZL1 or GT350R or a Porsche if they want something fun
How much seat time do you have in these three cars?

I find it funny that the M3 is too big and yet somehow the much larger and heavier by 150 lbs Mustang is the better choice. Interesting.

The Camaro is ugly but I'm sure a great driving car.

Finally, some of us want a well rounded, premium, do it all hardcore sports sedan and not a street kegal track car. Spending $80k on a toy is dumb. Why not just get a used base GTPP and modify it? It's a wicked fun car with a killer motor and the overall same basic platform for about a third of the price. That's smart money for a toy. I honestly see no case for the 350/R as the base car has all the necessary ingredients (killer screamer NA V8, Brembo 6 pots, Torsen diff, etc). Wtf you need a 350 for?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BTB View Post
Agreed I could go for an F80 ZCP as a daily though, if I was loaded. It gets me excited in that daily-people-hauler-muscle-car role, but not as a weekend toy.
Exactly, except what you're missing is that it's both a good everyday precision muscle car AND a Killer weekend car, for 64k. RWD, front engine, perfect balance, manual trans, huge brakes, wicked power, CF roof, amazing seats, super nice interior, killer good looks, every usability and just flat big pimpin'. Yes please.

Who's going to spend $100k on a weekend toy save for the very rich? For the rest of us either one badass all around car, or, a regular DD plus cheap weekend toy is reality. For me it's the former since I want to have fun every day.
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Last edited by EricSMG; Sat, Oct-13-2018 at 05:45:03 AM.
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Old Sat, Oct-13-2018, 05:32:38 AM   #256
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

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Originally Posted by EricSMG View Post
Panda - I can't drive my car in anything but Sport+ throttle.

Efficiency is massively laggy and lazy and ruins the car. Sport is good but has the stupid auto-rev match enabled. Sport+ is perfection. It feels just like the S54 - precise and very high resolution. Perfect control giving a direct connection between throttle and rear wheels. Never jumpy or twitchy.
I Should clarify that sport+ is actually best for track driving, which I know is the whole point of it. It works great there. My gripe on the F8x is that you canít disengage it without also disengaging the loudest exhaust setting and some other stuff. And on the street itís way too touchy if you have to make a light throttle start.

Sport is the best setting for me on the street but I have the DCT, I didnít consider the auto rev match on the manuals.

How did you find the power button on the E9x?
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Old Sat, Oct-13-2018, 05:42:34 AM   #257
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

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I Should clarify that sport+ is actually best for track driving, which I know is the whole point of it. It works great there. My gripe on the F8x is that you canít disengage it without also disengaging the loudest exhaust setting and some other stuff. And on the street itís way too touchy if you have to make a light throttle start.

Sport is the best setting for me on the street but I have the DCT, I didnít consider the auto rev match on the manuals.

How did you find the power button on the E9x?
We have very different tunes, you much more power and DCT so apples and oranges. It's never twitchy for me but I agree with the loud exhaust. I like how the car sounds best in Sport, too, but can't stand the rev match.

Power button on E90 was same as E46 = pointless. Twitchy, low resolution, big flat spots.
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Old Sat, Oct-13-2018, 05:59:49 AM   #258
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

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We have very different tunes, you much more power and DCT so apples and oranges. It's never twitchy for me but I agree with the loud exhaust. I like how the car sounds best in Sport, too, but can't stand the rev match.

Power button on E90 was same as E46 = pointless. Twitchy, low resolution, big flat spots.
Right. I hated the E90 power button too. Wanted to gouge it out of my console. I wanted to see how calibrated we were across models.

The GTS in s+ is so sensitive (I think this is what you are calling twitchy) that if Iím at part throttle and low gear, just the act of going over rough road transmits enough vibration to the pedal and my right foot that the car goes haywire from all the fine inputs and starts bucking like a bronco
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Old Sat, Oct-13-2018, 06:07:21 AM   #259
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

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Right. I hated the E90 power button too. Wanted to gouge it out of my console. I wanted to see how calibrated we were across models.

The GTS in s+ is so sensitive (I think this is what you are calling twitchy) that if I’m at part throttle and low gear, just the act of going over rough road transmits enough vibration to the pedal and my right foot that the car goes haywire from all the fine inputs and starts bucking like a bronco
The ZCP tune is super smooth (but aggressive) and very easy to control in stop and go traffic in all situations. I find that before the boost arrives the motor feels a lot like the S54 - very crisp and responsive, and then once in the boost, very high resolution control. Unlike the Sport button in 46/90, there isn't any dead or flat spots - even though part throttle is ultra crisp, if I really step into it I get a ton more power, so it's very linear. 10% feels like 10%, 20 like 20 and so on. I have little desire to tune it as they nailed the ZCP tune from the factory and don't want to ruin a good thing even though more power sounds fun - but then again, it's borderline too fast already but totally usable and controllable. More grunt sounds almost counterproductive in a way. If I could have it my way I would add only high rpm power to get as close to NA feel as possible.

Efficiency is horrible. The first 50% of pedal does very little and then BAM full boost arrives. Very not M-car.
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Old Sat, Oct-13-2018, 06:39:04 AM   #260
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

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Originally Posted by evil panda View Post
The GTS in s+ is so sensitive (I think this is what you are calling twitchy) that if Iím at part throttle and low gear, just the act of going over rough road transmits enough vibration to the pedal and my right foot that the car goes haywire from all the fine inputs and starts bucking like a bronco
46M 'Sport' button suffers this too. I am convinced that button isn't meant for low speeds or gradual rolling starts. It's meant for when you are on track at high-rpm, if anything. starting from a stop-light, if you hit any bumps...bucking bronco like you don't know how to drive a manual...even with SMG.
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Active Group-Buys (PM if Interested): OE CSL Bootlids, Supersprint Headers/Exhaust MEGA thread, New Supersprint Oversized Twin-Piped Section 2 ...and more to come!
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Discussing BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts in the E46 M3 (2001-2006) Forum - Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006. at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)