BMW M3 Forum
BMW M3 Forum BMW M3 Gallery BMW M3 Reviews BMW M3 Social Groups BMW M3 Chat M3Forum Sponsors >>
Loading


Mobile M3forum
Go Back   BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X) > BMW M3 Discussions > E46 M3 (2001-2006)
Tire Rack Buy Winter Tires Now!
Not a member? Register Now!
Register Gallery All Albums Garage Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Calendar FAQ

E46 M3 (2001-2006) Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old Tue, Jan-17-2017, 10:55:33 PM   #21
stash1
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,343
In the garage:
Reputation: 0 stash1 is on a distinguished road
Location: Owings Mills, MD.

United States




Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by digger View Post
is the end result more advance in the vanos maps compared to stock cam and optimised tune?
Yes, you can get a little more aggressive w/the VANOS maps, but that's only half the battle here...the real issue is base cam timing.
__________________
'04 AW/IR...Not Stock
Jump to top stash1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Register now and remove these ads
Old Wed, Jan-18-2017, 01:56:38 AM   #22
CrookedCommie
Captain Slow
 
CrookedCommie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 656
In the garage:
Reputation: 0 CrookedCommie is on a distinguished road
Location: Cincinnati

Bulgaria




Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HassanEido View Post
Static compression changes, since longer durartion cams have higher overlap, and valves open sooner and close later. Which means that the cylinder might not seal as well statically while cranking, so you get a lower static compression reading if you test the conventional way, and it's partly why tuning is needed for cams. Of course vanos tuning changes that, and your dynamic compression will rise back with proper tuning, and with the added flow you'll be makibg more power.
Quote:
Originally Posted by digger View Post
if its not timed correctly it could be installed over advanced, which raises cranking compression. a non vanos engine with similar specs would crank closer to 200psi, the s54 cranks lower than this because of the default cam installation position is retarded alot
Thanks for the explanation!
Jump to top CrookedCommie is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Wed, Jan-18-2017, 02:35:08 AM   #23
.
Registered User
 
.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 216
In the garage:
Reputation: 0 . is on a distinguished road
Location: Ocoee

United States




Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HassanEido View Post
Yes. An untuned cammed car will make less power.. my car made 313.4 whp before cams. After cams it was making 290.. some 23 whp were missing before the retune, similar loss was in torque it went from 267 to 245 or so
Good to know. That is very much my symptoms. That was the biggest thing keeping me from believing it could be the tune I didn't know it could actually happen like that. I guess it's time to bite the bullet and get a dyno tune and settle this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nickpiper12 View Post
I would get on the dyno and have a custom tune done, only if the car checks out mechanically.

It took me months and multiple visits to the dyno with my tuner to achieve my results and drivability, 371whp/260wtq, on a stock head with the 288/280's.
I can only hope to hit around those numbers. You have better headers and exhaust than me I don't think the headwork will quite make up for all of that. We shall see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by digger View Post
i value compression test data over leakdown. i would only ever do leakdown upon finding issues with a compression test. compression test can tell you if cam base timing is off, you would expect a reduction with a cammed engine compared to stock, if the compression is higher the stock then youd know the timing is way off

post up overlayed dyno data, the shape of the curves can be revealing as whether its a vanos issue or something

its unlikely to be anything related to bottom end, most likely vanos and tuning but its always good to check mechanical things
Quote:
Originally Posted by digger View Post
if its not timed correctly it could be installed over advanced, which raises cranking compression. a non vanos engine with similar specs would crank closer to 200psi, the s54 cranks lower than this because of the default cam installation position is retarded alot
I have every reason to believe the car is timed perfectly. I've timed it dozens of times as well as had it checked by a third party mechanic and friend I trust very well. Vanos tests shows it moving fully through its ranges. Interesting info on the compression check, I've always been told the opposite even when i emailed Lang and Raj. Which reminds me I'm pretty sure I did a compression check early on in the diagnosis stage and was getting somewhat low numbers and abandoned it after my talks with them and bought a leak down kit instead. Didn't record the numbers because of that unfortunately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stash1 View Post
100% agreed w/this! It can take lots of trial and error to find the right combination of parts and tuning to make these motors come alive...just throwing parts at a car w/o proper knowledge and tuning sometimes ends with poor results.



Ya, agreed digger, but typically what we're seeing here w/folks that are having poor results running these 288 cams is a reduction in static compression from skewed cam timing. I think OP will eventually find that (barring any other mechanical defects) his is a cam timing problem...makes all the difference in the world!

EDIT: Just wanted to add that until mechanical cam timing has been corrected...everything else in the tune is irrelevant.
Cam timing problem from tuning or from installation? I've timed this thing so many times and it lines up perfect every time I check it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuc1 View Post
And if you aren't expecting the compression numbers to be lower you will go Code Brown after seeing what your brand new fully built engine with 288/280s reads.
Ask me how I know...

Mike
Yeah thats what happened to me the first time. I want to say they were in the 130ish range? Don't quote me on that its been a while. But they were consistent across the cylinders so after finding that out about the compression check thats all I cared about.
__________________

Engine: Lang Racing stage 2.5 head, Schrick 288/280 cams, ARP studs, JE cut-ring HG, TTFS, Beisans vanos, afe intake, CSL headers, SGT scza section 3.

Driveline: AKG stage II shifter, Vibra technics engine and trans mounts

Suspension: Bilstein coilovers, camber mod, UUC sways, PFC direct drive, PFC 08's, Nitto NT05's.

Instagram: instatroll_zach
Jump to top . is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Wed, Jan-18-2017, 04:32:03 AM   #24
digger
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 497
Reputation: 0 digger is on a distinguished road

United States




Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

those compression numbers are somewhat close to what id expect given stock is supposed to be 160-170 (others ive seen quoted with these cams were 145ish from memory) and youve got a much later closing inlet valve so it wont trap as well and should post a lower number. Being uniform is good.

have you done a dyno run as is? can you post it up? also if you have a run before hand it would be good to be able to compare.
__________________
1996 e36 M3 Evo

Last edited by digger; Wed, Jan-18-2017 at 04:44:05 AM.
Jump to top digger is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Wed, Jan-18-2017, 06:56:28 AM   #25
paulclaude
Registered User
 
paulclaude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 243
Reputation: 0 paulclaude is on a distinguished road

Scotland




Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by . View Post
I have every reason to believe the car is timed perfectly. I've timed it dozens of times as well as had it checked by a third party mechanic and friend I trust very well. Vanos tests shows it moving fully through its ranges.

Cam timing problem from tuning or from installation? I've timed this thing so many times and it lines up perfect every time I check it. .
If it's passing the Vanos test, then cam timing is not your issue. Given everything checks out healthy, I maintain the correct approach with the tune will help you find the extra HP.
__________________
2005 E46 M3 Track - DIY Tuned - SSV2 - Schrick 288/280 - CSL Intake/Flap/ECU - KW Clubsport/GC - Turner ARBs - Poly Bushed - Apex ARC-8 Square Setup - PB 380mm BBK - Corbeau Buckets - 6MT Conv. w/CAE Ultra Shifter
2004 E46 M3 Road - CSL Wheels - Bilstein PSS10 - Performance BMW/CSL Brakes
Jump to top paulclaude is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Wed, Jan-18-2017, 12:02:45 PM   #26
nuc1
M-aholic
 
nuc1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,312
Reputation: 0 nuc1 is on a distinguished road
Location: SC

United States




Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by digger View Post
those compression numbers are somewhat close to what id expect given stock is supposed to be 160-170 (others ive seen quoted with these cams were 145ish from memory) and youve got a much later closing inlet valve so it wont trap as well and should post a lower number. Being uniform is good.

have you done a dyno run as is? can you post it up? also if you have a run before hand it would be good to be able to compare.
Right after rebuild compression numbers were 151 - 155 psi for all six cylinders. Read the same about 2 years later.

Mike
__________________
02 TiAg/Black 6MT
Go
- BW CSL Intake - Dinan ITBs - Ported & Polished Head - Schrick 288/280 - ARP Head/Main/Rod Bolts - Epic Rod Bearings - CP Pistons - Beisan VANOS - Okada Coils - SS V1 Stepped Headers & Non-Res Sec 1 - OEM Sec 2 - AA Gen 6 Sec 3 - OEM CSL MAP & Pressure Rail - CSL Software - 4.10 Polished Diff - TTFS Tune
Stop
- Brembo 355F/345R - Stoptech Pads (Street) - GC Street/Track SA 525/550
Show
- OEM Euro Front Bumper - OEM CSL Trunk - Polished OEM 19s - OEM Euro Folding Mirrors - OEM LEDs w/ BFD - Sunroof Delete - Dynavin - JL 12W6 - JL 300/2 & 500/1 - Focal K2P
15 MR/Black 320i Family Truckster
11 Tundra Super White/Black Actual Truckster
Jump to top nuc1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Wed, Jan-18-2017, 05:34:59 PM   #27
nickpiper12
Registered User
 
nickpiper12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,385
In the garage:
Reputation: 0 nickpiper12 is on a distinguished road
Location: Chicago

United States




Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by . View Post
I can only hope to hit around those numbers. You have better headers and exhaust than me I don't think the headwork will quite make up for all of that. We shall see.

Yea larger primary headers such as the SSV1's and a massive 3.5" exhaust on the back end with a proper section 1 will help a lot. After all a system should be designed all together, not just bits and pieces. So many variables. Hopefully you can get it figured out.
__________________
2003.5 E46 M3 SMG | Alpine White/Cinnamon
2000 E46 Touring Sport 5MT | Steel Grey/Tanin Red
2011 E91 Touring Sport 6AT | Alpine White/Chestnut Brown
Jump to top nickpiper12 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Fri, Jan-20-2017, 03:23:38 AM   #28
TTFS
M3Forum Sponsor
 
TTFS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,078
Reputation: 0 TTFS is on a distinguished road

United States




Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

Sorry for being late to the party everyone. Clearly a proper custom tune will help in getting the maximum power but there are a few other things to consider as well. Just because the cams are installed with the h bridge and everything seems to line up doesn't mean that the correct cam timing in relation to how the cam is ground is correct. Further, since the vanos has an adaptation limit of up to 8 degrees you can pass a vanos test and still be up to 8 degrees off. Without using a degree wheel your only option is to tune away for hours moving the cams timing until you find the sweat spot as many have noted here. If by chance you have less than 100 bar oil pressure at the vanos then you add more variables since the cams will be slow to move. All of this will surly hender the performance significantly. I was able to take a look at a datalogg for this car at the drag race track and one thing that stuck out was the ambient temps where 68 degrees but the air temp in the airflow meter was north of 125 degrees the entire time. I can't imagine that is helping anything either. But last, in revwieing the OP's build specs posted here there is another thing that is hendering this thing some more.
He is using a JE cut ring gasket that is .048 think versus a stock gasket which is .028 thick. Clearly moving the head .020 further away will play a good roll in knocking down the compression quite a bit. This would make sense why his compressions numbers are so low. So a de winded engine with big cams that haven't been dialed in is surely not going to make big power ( at least not in my book). I think slim is working on a degree wheel setup for these engines as soon as that is available I believe we will not see the true potential of these setups without having to spend countless hours on the dyno playing back and forth with cam timing, fueling and ignition timing. But until then a dyno, a tuner and a bunch time with both is all we have. Sorry for any typos or bad grammar, did this in my phone and I am half a sleep.

Thanks

Team TTFS
Jump to top TTFS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Fri, Jan-20-2017, 06:01:28 AM   #29
paulclaude
Registered User
 
paulclaude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 243
Reputation: 0 paulclaude is on a distinguished road

Scotland




Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TTFS View Post
Just because the cams are installed with the h bridge and everything seems to line up doesn't mean that the correct cam timing in relation to how the cam is ground is correct. Further, since the vanos has an adaptation limit of up to 8 degrees you can pass a vanos test and still be up to 8 degrees off. Without using a degree wheel your only option is to tune away for hours moving the cams timing until you find the sweat spot as many have noted here. If by chance you have less than 100 bar oil pressure at the vanos then you add more variables since the cams will be slow to move.
TTFS - good shout on the HG, could certainly explain things.

Regarding the timing however - the +/-8deg adaptation value is how much the Vanos is moving the camshaft position to account for any mechanical timing error. As long as the cam adapts with a value within that 8deg range, the camshaft timing would be the a same in all cases. The DME offsets can then be used to find the 'sweet spot', rather than mechanically altering the camshaft position. There should be no need to re-time things physically unless you are sitting close/on the adaptation limit. Further, if the camshafts are slow to move, this will show itself via the Vanos test response times.
__________________
2005 E46 M3 Track - DIY Tuned - SSV2 - Schrick 288/280 - CSL Intake/Flap/ECU - KW Clubsport/GC - Turner ARBs - Poly Bushed - Apex ARC-8 Square Setup - PB 380mm BBK - Corbeau Buckets - 6MT Conv. w/CAE Ultra Shifter
2004 E46 M3 Road - CSL Wheels - Bilstein PSS10 - Performance BMW/CSL Brakes
Jump to top paulclaude is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Fri, Jan-20-2017, 12:13:17 PM   #30
TTFS
M3Forum Sponsor
 
TTFS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,078
Reputation: 0 TTFS is on a distinguished road

United States




Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

I hear you on the cams however your making the assumption that the keyway that lines up the cam pickup wheel is in the correct position in relation to the cam lobes. All the ecu has to go by is the pickup wheel. So for example if the cam manufacturer ground 2 degrees of advance on the intake the ecu has no way of knowing this and your vanos maps would be off by that amount. One would think what would be the reason for doing that if you have the vanos to advance or retard right? Well if you index a stock cam and 288 you might be surprised what you find. I did it, and the cam we checked was off by 5 degrees
In comparison to a stock cam. Maybe they have done this for the guys who do vanos deletes, I can't answer that question that would be one for the cam manuafter. Again, I am not saying it can be solved by tuning it thru the dme but, it would be a whole lot easier if we actually knew where the cams are positioned in relation to tdc. Without indexing the cams or putting a degree wheel on the engine your only hope it that the cams are made to exact tolerances every time and they are truly ground to the cam card specs. This is what we have found so I figured I would share it. Maybe I am too old school but if I had a dollar for every time I built and engine and put a degree wheel on it index that turned out to be off I could probably be in the Carribian right now under a palm tree with a beer.



Team TTFS
Jump to top TTFS is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 03:52:20 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
M3Forum.com and M3forum.net is in no way sponsored, endorsed or affiliated by or with BMW NA / BMW AG or any of it's subsidiaries or vendors.
BMW and M3 (E90 M3 | E92 M3 | E93 M3 | E46 M3 | E36 M3 | E30 M3) are registered trademarks of BMW AG.
M3Forum Terms of Service
Copyright 1999-2014 M3Forum.com
Discussing Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power? in the E46 M3 (2001-2006) Forum - Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006. at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)