BMW M3 Forum
BMW M3 Forum BMW M3 Gallery BMW M3 Reviews BMW M3 Social Groups BMW M3 Chat M3Forum Sponsors >>
Loading


Mobile M3forum
Go Back   BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X) > General BMW > General BMW Discussion
Tire Rack Buy Winter Tires Now!
Not a member? Register Now!
Register Gallery All Albums Garage Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Calendar FAQ

General BMW Discussion Place to discuss all things BMW. And a place for E30, E36, and E46 owners to get to know each other! BMW News


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old Mon, Dec-21-2009, 08:13:18 PM   #31
HofmeisterKinky
See what I did there?
 
HofmeisterKinky's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 391
In the garage:
Reputation: 0 HofmeisterKinky is on a distinguished road

United States




Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
Only synthetic oil should be used in BMW manual gearboxes, drain interval 30,000 miles

Red Line products are highly recommended (www.redlineoil.com). Questions or problems, e-mail me or dave@redlineoil.com.
BMW doesn't think so. They specced Dexron III for most transmissions, and that spec is easily met by a dino or syn-blend.

There's that Red Line plug again. Red Line D4 ATF was nothing special in my transmission. Motul Multi-ATF is doing much better.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
All the BMW gearbox re-builders I know use Red Line MTL exclusively, regardless of model year or gearbox. The general consensus is, MTL is the better lubricant. However, the D4ATF product will require less shifter babying during cold operation.
...then how is MTL better, exactly? Sounds like it's too thick.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
I use Red Line MTL in manual gearboxes except where I can’t trust the driver to shift properly when the gearbox is cold, in which case I use Red Line D4 ATF.
Oh, that's a good one. Use a non-spec fluid and then blame the driver when it doesn't work.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
For older automatics using Red Line or other synthetic ATF, drain interval 30,000 miles. Old fashioned petroleum ATF, drain interval 15,000 miles
"Other synthetic." I love it. Like all synthetic ATFs are the same...


Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
At various production dates in the mid-1990s, which vary according to model, BMW switched to their so-called “lifetime fill” ATF in automatic transmissions, as well as manual gearbox lubricant and differential oil. The reason for this, as far as anyone can tell, is marketing and not engineering – the idea being to foster the notion of the low-maintenance BMW....
This whole section is just speculation. It's fair until it gets to the recommendations, which ask us to take your word over BMW's. Sorry, but no.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
Differential Oil

Recommend Red Line 75W-90 synthetic gear oil, drain interval 30,000 miles in any BMW differential

Okay to use Red Line 75W-90 in place of BMW “lifetime fill” gear oil
Again, why? What are you, a Red Line ad man?

The original 75w-90 fluid (Castrol SAF-XO) was on the thick side of the 75w-90 scale. The scale has changed since then, and that fluid would now be a 75w-110. The Red Line 75w-90 fluids are (obviously) thinner than that. Since BMW seems to think many of those diffs run just fine with 75w-140, I feel like going thinner might not be the best idea.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
Brake Fluid

Recommend one-year brake fluid changes, or prior to each driving school or track event. BMW now recommends two-year brake fluid changes, but used to recommend a one-year interval.
Here's that juxtaposition again: "They do this now, but they USED to do this." So?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
The difference between the car that ran 15,000-mile oil change intervals and never had it's gearbox or differential oil changed (as per BMW instructions) and the one that ran high-end synthetic lubricants and had it's drive-line maintained in contravention of BMW's instructions, is the strong likelihood that the second car will be running strong at 200,000 miles whereas the first car will likely have a worn out drive-train.
Based on what data?

And you are completely ignoring how the car is driven, in what part of the world it resides, and what kind of fuel is used. Maintenance is not and will never be the only variable in how long a car lasts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
BMWs, and most modern cars, will run 100,000 miles just fine with zero maintenance.
Tell that to the Land Rover guy who never changed the oil.

Last edited by HofmeisterKinky; Mon, Dec-21-2009 at 08:23:01 PM.
Jump to top HofmeisterKinky is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Register now and remove these ads
Old Mon, Dec-21-2009, 08:46:40 PM   #32
GreyMatter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 267
Reputation: 0 GreyMatter has disabled reputation

United States




Default

Hofmeister:

You make some good points here, however it also seems that rather than distrusting BMW too much as in the case of the original writer of the article you seem to put perhaps a bit too much faith in their recommendations. If you were the one fitting the bill for free maintenance wouldn't you be tempted to try to get away with paying for as little as possible? It just seems that there is too much of a conflict of interest on the part of BMW for me to take their recommendations at 100% face value.

Also one thing not mentioned is BMW's "lifetime fluids". According to their maintenance schedule fluids such as power steering and SMG fluid never need to be changed. Obviously these fluids won't last forever. It would be nice if they would at least mention that if your car did happen to make it to say 200k miles that maybe you might want to think about changing these.

Personally I think this alternative schedule is a little too careful and BMW's slightly not enough. But everyone has to make their own judgements and every car is different so who knows.
Jump to top GreyMatter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mon, Dec-21-2009, 09:12:32 PM   #33
HofmeisterKinky
See what I did there?
 
HofmeisterKinky's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 391
In the garage:
Reputation: 0 HofmeisterKinky is on a distinguished road

United States




Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyMatter View Post
You make some good points here, however it also seems that rather than distrusting BMW too much as in the case of the original writer of the article you seem to put perhaps a bit too much faith in their recommendations. If you were the one fitting the bill for free maintenance wouldn't you be tempted to try to get away with paying for as little as possible? It just seems that there is too much of a conflict of interest on the part of BMW for me to take their recommendations at 100% face value.
Read closely. I never said BMW's recommendations were dead on the money, nor did I even imply that we should take them at face value.

What I'm saying boils down to this: if we are to be skeptical of BMW's recommendations -- as indeed we should -- then we shouldn't even give the time of day to someone's gut feelings. BMW may be trying to pinch pennies, but at least they have a stake in a favorable outcome and REAMS of data to back up their claims. Neglecting that in favor of unfounded and biased advice while claiming to be cautious and skeptical is a bit silly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyMatter View Post
Also one thing not mentioned is BMW's "lifetime fluids". According to their maintenance schedule fluids such as power steering and SMG fluid never need to be changed. Obviously these fluids won't last forever. It would be nice if they would at least mention that if your car did happen to make it to say 200k miles that maybe you might want to think about changing these.
Actually I did address that part, but I'll elaborate. You make good points.

Of course those fluids won't last forever. Of course it would be nice to hear some advice for if you want to keep your car past 200k miles. Why do you think BMW doesn't account for those fluids or that lifetime?

Here's a thought: Maybe most people don't account for those things, and for the type of service those cars see in the real world, it is not necessary to do so. Maybe those fluids really will last as long as necessary for most people. Maybe the power steering system or transmission will need major service by 200k miles anyway, regardless of fluid changes. Maybe most BMWs will never see 200k miles. Until you have that information, you can't judge BMW's motives.

Can you change it early as a precaution? Absolutely. It's your money, and if you'd rather create that pollution than take the tiny chance that your transmission will wear out at 150k instead of 170k miles or whatever, then no one can stop you. But saying BMW's service intervals and recommendations are bunk, just because you THINK they are, is another story.

Does that make more sense?
Jump to top HofmeisterKinky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mon, Dec-21-2009, 09:43:31 PM   #34
GreyMatter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 267
Reputation: 0 GreyMatter has disabled reputation

United States




Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HofmeisterKinky View Post
BMW may be trying to pinch pennies, but at least they have a stake in a favorable outcome and REAMS of data to back up their claims.
Have you actually seen any of this data? While I'm sure they did extensive testing when coming up with their recommendations unless they actually release the data to the public and have it confirmed by a non-biased third party we have to basically take their word for it that their data is correct.

For example, suppose the engineers told them that the oil needed to be changed at 10k miles but someone higher up on the marketing chain decided that they would fudge the numbers to save BMW some money and make it 15k instead?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HofmeisterKinky View Post
Here's a thought: Maybe most people don't account for those things, and for the type of service those cars see in the real world, it is not necessary to do so. Maybe those fluids really will last as long as necessary for most people. Maybe the power steering system or transmission will need major service by 200k miles anyway, regardless of fluid changes. Maybe most BMWs will never see 200k miles. Until you have that information, you can't judge BMW's motives.
Well that's a lot of speculation on your part. The fact is that BMW doesn't include these in their maintenance schedule for a reason and to me the best reason I can think of for that is to downplay the amount of maintenance required for the car. Otherwise why wouldn't they just call it 200k maintenance instead of neglecting to mention it at all? Obviously they have to have some idea as to long how these fluids might be good for, so why not just tell people instead of keeping it a secret?
Jump to top GreyMatter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mon, Dec-21-2009, 11:57:41 PM   #35
das borgen
Off-Topic King
 
das borgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Age: 32
Posts: 6,850
In the garage:
Reputation: 0 das borgen is on a distinguished road
Location: Columbus, OH

United States




Default

Hoffmeister you make great points indeed but you should add that anyone using anything other than spec items in a car is risking something.

I cannot say for sure what the long term effects are of using different stuff than BMW says.

I do love hard evidence and Grassroots motorsports (GRM) recently (June 09 maybe?) ran a test where they dynoed a E30 M3 with stock fluids and then with some redline stuffs. Of course that was immediate new fluids and you should expect to see better numbers than used stuff. I did not see any long term numbers from GRM but I have had great luck with redline's stuff and have always used ONLY their tranny lubes in all my cars.

I'll take my chances but I am fully wary that you argued Hoffmeister is indeed truth.

GreyMatter, BMW would never release the test results because they are "trade secrets"
__________________
Never run out of traction, real estate, and ideas at the same time.
Jump to top das borgen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Tue, Dec-22-2009, 02:11:06 AM   #36
HofmeisterKinky
See what I did there?
 
HofmeisterKinky's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 391
In the garage:
Reputation: 0 HofmeisterKinky is on a distinguished road

United States




Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyMatter View Post
Have you actually seen any of this data? While I'm sure they did extensive testing when coming up with their recommendations unless they actually release the data to the public and have it confirmed by a non-biased third party we have to basically take their word for it that their data is correct.
Have you noticed that you're being quite a lot more critical of BMW than you are of the OP?

I would strongly suggest reading up on what car companies do to test their cars prior to release. They take them to extreme climates, drive them over broken pavement for hours a day, etc. BMW also beats the hell out of every single one of their cars on the Nurburgring.

Whether their data is "correct" is a non sequitur. There's no way to know until the car has been on the road and in common use for years. The point is, no matter what data BMW has, you can be damn sure they have more than Mike Miller.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyMatter View Post
For example, suppose the engineers told them that the oil needed to be changed at 10k miles but someone higher up on the marketing chain decided that they would fudge the numbers to save BMW some money and make it 15k instead?
That looks like a great way to get fired.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyMatter View Post
Well that's a lot of speculation on your part. The fact is that BMW doesn't include these in their maintenance schedule for a reason and to me the best reason I can think of for that is to downplay the amount of maintenance required for the car. Otherwise why wouldn't they just call it 200k maintenance instead of neglecting to mention it at all? Obviously they have to have some idea as to long how these fluids might be good for, so why not just tell people instead of keeping it a secret?
Of course it's speculation. Hence all the maybes.

And I don't know if you've noticed, but you don't have anything to respond with except more speculation. This is why we need facts before we start making declarative statements about why BMW is doing things -- which, you will notice, I never did.
Jump to top HofmeisterKinky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Tue, Dec-22-2009, 06:37:01 AM   #37
ThatOneGuy
In the left lane, flashing to pass.
 
ThatOneGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,496
Reputation: 0 ThatOneGuy is on a distinguished road
Location: SF, CA

Germany




Default

I don't wander in here very often and I just found a few more pages added to my sticky.

As I said, I'm not the author. There's always room for second or third opinions but snide off handed comments and juvenile smileys help no one and do nothing for your credibility. The author is Mike Miller, Technical Editor of the BMW Car Club of America. He also writes the monthly "Tech Talk" column for their Roundel magazine. You'll note I gave him proper credit and copyright notice at the bottom of the article.

I think I'll take my BMW advice from him and not from anonymous kinky hofmeisters. But to each his or her own.
__________________
The Blog
Jump to top ThatOneGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Tue, Dec-22-2009, 07:27:06 AM   #38
HofmeisterKinky
See what I did there?
 
HofmeisterKinky's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 391
In the garage:
Reputation: 0 HofmeisterKinky is on a distinguished road

United States




Default

Didn't mean any personal attacks. See the beginning of my first post.

By the way, my username is a reference to the Hofmeister Kink, which is the little kink in the C-pillar of most BMWs. It's highlighted in my avatar.
Jump to top HofmeisterKinky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Tue, Dec-22-2009, 07:34:41 AM   #39
HofmeisterKinky
See what I did there?
 
HofmeisterKinky's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 391
In the garage:
Reputation: 0 HofmeisterKinky is on a distinguished road

United States




Default

Incidentally, I don't recall giving any advice here. Did I?
Jump to top HofmeisterKinky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mon, Sep-27-2010, 05:17:26 AM   #40
lencoo12
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1
Reputation: 0 lencoo12 is on a distinguished road

United States




Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyMatter View Post
Thanks for posting this. Does anyone else think that 30k miles sounds a little too early for replacing the fuel filter though? Exactly how dirty is it at 30k miles?
I plan on following this guide. I took my car in this week for an "in-between" oil & filter change at 6500 miles (-1200 break-in service = 5300), $99. My next scheduled service is about 6K miles (according to OBD) from now at 12K miles total. Seems like cheap insurance to me.
__________________
watch movies online
Jump to top lencoo12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
bmw, intervals, part, real, service

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Service intervals? acorreiajr E46 M3 (2001-2006) 3 Mon, Jan-10-2005 05:18:52 AM
Service Intervals DougMc E46 M3 (2001-2006) 3 Mon, Sep-08-2003 07:00:14 PM
Service Intervals droptop E46 M3 (2001-2006) 0 Tue, Aug-19-2003 03:49:28 PM
service intervals Jason B E36 M3 (1992-1999) 3 Sat, Jun-14-2003 10:59:35 PM



All times are GMT. The time now is 05:52:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
M3Forum.com and M3forum.net is in no way sponsored, endorsed or affiliated by or with BMW NA / BMW AG or any of it's subsidiaries or vendors.
BMW and M3 (E90 M3 | E92 M3 | E93 M3 | E46 M3 | E36 M3 | E30 M3) are registered trademarks of BMW AG.
M3Forum Terms of Service
Copyright 1999-2017 M3Forum.com
Discussing Real BMW Service Intervals, Part 1 in the General BMW Discussion Forum - Place to discuss all things BMW. And a place for E30, E36, and E46 owners to get to know each other! BMW News at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)