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E36 M3 (1992-1999) {Euro - S50 B32 321hp @ 7400 rpm} {U.S. - S52 B32 240 hp @ 6000 rpm}
Total Produced: 71,212 - Years Produced: 1992 to 1999


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Old Mon, Mar-13-2017, 01:23:34 PM   #11
SQ13
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Default Re: Money Shift Into Second Around 70 MPH

I have nothing to add except suggesting a change in hand position for 3 to 4 and 5-6 shifts. Try shifting with your thumb pointing down and your palm on the front of the shift knob. Shifting for me has been worry-free this way. Good luck with repair. Hopefully it's not too much of a pita.

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Old Mon, Mar-13-2017, 01:40:49 PM   #12
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Default Re: Money Shift Into Second Around 70 MPH

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
If it is not idling smoothly you likely have a bent valve or two. I'd do a compression test. I did this last year unfortunately. I was able to spend some money on a performance head, but if you can't do everything at least look into a multi angle valve job to see if it is some thing you can afford, assuming you are into performance.
Correct. If not idling smooth you have bent some valves. You can't always tell from a scope and sometimes have to put the valves on a lathe to see if they are bent. I've rebuilt my head twice now. Once from 4-2 money shift like you just did, once from too impatient downshifting. E36 race car in club racing so adrenaline gets the best of me sometimes. $2-3K, at least, for a head rebuild if a shop is doing it for you.
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Old Mon, Mar-13-2017, 02:22:53 PM   #13
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Default Re: Money Shift Into Second Around 70 MPH

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Originally Posted by thirtysixnick View Post
Going to say my car is somewhere similar along these lines. How much did all of that cost? Is it DIY'able to somewhere with average mechanical skill?
It cost right shy of $3,000 from an Indy shop in Kansas.

I don't know how as far as DIY but I think the hardest part would be the setting the valve clearance and not messing up the camshafts
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Old Mon, Mar-13-2017, 02:43:05 PM   #14
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Default Re: Money Shift Into Second Around 70 MPH

Cost depends on what you buy for parts and who does the work. You could have $500 in the job replacing just what is damaged, buying a new HG and bolts, resurfacing the head, changing the oil, filter and coolant, and DIYing the labor. If you have to pay a shop, figure on 8 hours of labor.

A refurbished head is probably about $800, with valves and springs and verified guides and resurfacing. VAC and others sell them but they want a good core from you. If a chamber on yours is messed up from a valve head breaking off, you won't have a core. You can look at the price increases for the various VAC stages to see what performance options cost. Remember, you have to add your lifters and cams. If you want new lifters, price out INA from autohausaz, fcpeuro, pelican parts, ecs tuning, etc. Check top end gasket kit prices while you are looking.
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Old Mon, Mar-13-2017, 03:19:16 PM   #15
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Default Re: Money Shift Into Second Around 70 MPH

Oops my internet sucks.

There was a NEW M52/S52 head on eeebay a week or so ago for $800 just FYI.
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Old Mon, Mar-13-2017, 05:12:08 PM   #16
j0rdan J
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Default Re: Money Shift Into Second Around 70 MPH

For reference, I think I paid $350 or $400 for a rebuilt M52 head, then paid another $100 to get my S52 valve springs swapped over.
My dad paid around $700 for a rebuilt S52 head. Had new valve guides and such so it was a bit pricier. Expect to spend around $500 in parts. Only use a Elring or OE BMW head gasket.
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Old Mon, Mar-13-2017, 08:13:39 PM   #17
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Default Re: Money Shift Into Second Around 70 MPH

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiveightandten View Post
You need a leakdown tester and an air compressor. You can google it, as it's pretty standard. The only real variances are how much pressure people use, and whether or not they keep the plugs in.

If you have a compression tester, start there, as that will give you helpful information. If you have low compression anywhere, you can leakdown to find out where, or just pull the head and get a surprise. For a leakdown you're basically pressurizing the cylinder and listening for where the air is escaping. A bent intake valve will make it leak into the intake manifold. If you have a bent exhaust valve, you'll hear it hissing out of the exhaust. Bad rings will yield hissing into the crank case (you can hear that out the dipstick tube).

They sell leakdown test kits at Harbor Freight for pretty cheap. That kit works ok.
Okay awesome. I'll probably do the compression test and such tomorrow on my day off from work so in the case of something taking extra time and just having no rush to do anything haha. If compression comes out weird I'll do a leakdown and report back here. Thanks again for all the sense!

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
If it is not idling smoothly you likely have a bent valve or two. I'd do a compression test. I did this last year unfortunately. I was able to spend some money on a performance head, but if you can't do everything at least look into a multi angle valve job to see if it is some thing you can afford, assuming you are into performance.
If a valve is bent do I HAVE to replace the head?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SQ13 View Post
I have nothing to add except suggesting a change in hand position for 3 to 4 and 5-6 shifts. Try shifting with your thumb pointing down and your palm on the front of the shift knob. Shifting for me has been worry-free this way. Good luck with repair. Hopefully it's not too much of a pita.

https://youtu.be/H2tjT67RufY
Appreciate the tip/video. After this incident I'll probably be investing in a shifter refresh kit/ssk while definitely working on my hand positioning while shifting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaynardZed View Post
Correct. If not idling smooth you have bent some valves. You can't always tell from a scope and sometimes have to put the valves on a lathe to see if they are bent. I've rebuilt my head twice now. Once from 4-2 money shift like you just did, once from too impatient downshifting. E36 race car in club racing so adrenaline gets the best of me sometimes. $2-3K, at least, for a head rebuild if a shop is doing it for you.
If my car turns out to be low on compression I'll be looking into rebuilding my head because the engine does have 160k on it and probably would need it in the future anyways from my seldom aggressive driving. Any suggestions on a kit or somewhere to source parts? I found a head replacement kit from ECS Tuning and it's a hefty price, but it looks like it would be great quality. I'm just biased towards ECS to be honest though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboyM3 View Post
It cost right shy of $3,000 from an Indy shop in Kansas.

I don't know how as far as DIY but I think the hardest part would be the setting the valve clearance and not messing up the camshafts
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
Cost depends on what you buy for parts and who does the work. You could have $500 in the job replacing just what is damaged, buying a new HG and bolts, resurfacing the head, changing the oil, filter and coolant, and DIYing the labor. If you have to pay a shop, figure on 8 hours of labor.

A refurbished head is probably about $800, with valves and springs and verified guides and resurfacing. VAC and others sell them but they want a good core from you. If a chamber on yours is messed up from a valve head breaking off, you won't have a core. You can look at the price increases for the various VAC stages to see what performance options cost. Remember, you have to add your lifters and cams. If you want new lifters, price out INA from autohausaz, fcpeuro, pelican parts, ecs tuning, etc. Check top end gasket kit prices while you are looking.
I'm going to save up and prepare to spend multiples of $3,000 including labor from an independent shop, because I have NEVER toyed with anything this serious and neither has my dad who helps me on pretty much everything haha. As I said earlier in this post, I found a kit from ECS to basically redo the whole head and it comes with everything else needed for it I believe. It runs at $2,500 which is also around the same price for a new S50/S52, but I'd almost rather have the solidarity of a new head versus a lower mileage engine swap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpwrcpe View Post
Oops my internet sucks.

There was a NEW M52/S52 head on eeebay a week or so ago for $800 just FYI.
I'll check into this for sureee

Quote:
Originally Posted by j0rdan J View Post
For reference, I think I paid $350 or $400 for a rebuilt M52 head, then paid another $100 to get my S52 valve springs swapped over.
My dad paid around $700 for a rebuilt S52 head. Had new valve guides and such so it was a bit pricier. Expect to spend around $500 in parts. Only use a Elring or OE BMW head gasket.
I'll see what the cost would be just to replace what is actually messed up versus a full head "rebuild". Feel like with how many miles my poor engine has a rebuild would be a lot more beneficial. My funds are DUMPED now
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Old Mon, Mar-13-2017, 10:42:43 PM   #18
fiveightandten
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Default Re: Money Shift Into Second Around 70 MPH

Quote:
Originally Posted by thirtysixnick View Post
If a valve is bent do I HAVE to replace the head?
No, if there's damage to the head, you have to replace the head. Damage can come from the valve, or piece of a valve slapping up against the head. By "head" we're referring to the casting itself. The parts inside (valves, lifters, springs, cams, etc) can be replaced. But if you have damage to the head casting, it's generally junk. People repair these things, but it often carries risk with it. If you weld, the metal isn't uniform and can develop hot spots and eventually fail. Our heads (and engines in general) are cheap enough that you'd just junk it. You can get a whole engine for under $2K, so it's silly to repair a casting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thirtysixnick
If my car turns out to be low on compression I'll be looking into rebuilding my head because the engine does have 160k on it and probably would need it in the future anyways from my seldom aggressive driving. Any suggestions on a kit or somewhere to source parts? I found a head replacement kit from ECS Tuning and it's a hefty price, but it looks like it would be great quality. I'm just biased towards ECS to be honest though.
Find a machine shop in your area that's familiar with BMWs and buy what they tell you to buy. When you pull a head off you want to have a machine shop pressure test it and deck it. You pressure test it to ensure there are no cracks. You deck it (machine the mating surface) to ensure it's perfectly straight, and seals up against the block correctly.

You can choose to have the machine shop refurbish the head, or you can do it yourself and have them do minimal work on it. You'll have to decide how far you want to go with it, based on your budget, skill set, and preferences. You can go as far as having the head tanked, replacing the valve seals, guides, lifters, putting cams in, cams with new springs, having the seats cut, etc. Things get pricey and not all of that may be necessary. You have to decide if you want to do the minimum, add some preventative stuff on top, take the most reliable approach, and/or add on some performance options.

If you're not pulling the head yourself, most garages have machine shops that they deal with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thirtysixnick View Post
I'm going to save up and prepare to spend multiples of $3,000 including labor from an independent shop, because I have NEVER toyed with anything this serious and neither has my dad who helps me on pretty much everything haha. As I said earlier in this post, I found a kit from ECS to basically redo the whole head and it comes with everything else needed for it I believe. It runs at $2,500 which is also around the same price for a new S50/S52, but I'd almost rather have the solidarity of a new head versus a lower mileage engine swap.
That's another option instead of a local machine shop. I haven't used ECS for that sort of service, so I can't comment. But regarding a new head, remember that it's only half the engine.

I rebuilt the head on an Integra GSR I had years ago. The car had 215K on it, and I left the bottom end alone. After the head job the car burned a good amount of oil, whereas it never did before. Compression went up on the head, and the rings stayed the same. When everything wears evenly it's different than having a completely refreshed head and a tired block. I don't foresee issues like that with a 160K mile S52, but just FYI. If I were you I'd take care of the head and leave the block, just like you're planning on (assuming there's no piston damage).
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Last edited by fiveightandten; Mon, Mar-13-2017 at 10:47:38 PM.
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Old Mon, Mar-13-2017, 11:37:52 PM   #19
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Default Re: Money Shift Into Second Around 70 MPH

This article might be of help to you re hand positions when shifting. A bit awkward to get used to but will prevent the money shift if you adhere to it faithfully.
http://store.uucmotorwerks.com/artic..._technique.htm
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Old Tue, Mar-14-2017, 01:30:21 AM   #20
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Default Re: Money Shift Into Second Around 70 MPH

Just curious, does your car have the 5th gear lean issue? If so, that can explain why the money shift happened! When you fix the car, drop the trans and take care of that so it won't happen again
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Discussing Money Shift Into Second Around 70 MPH in the E36 M3 (1992-1999) Forum - {Euro - S50 B32 321hp @ 7400 rpm} {U.S. - S52 B32 240 hp @ 6000 rpm}
Total Produced: 71,212 - Years Produced: 1992 to 1999 at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)