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E46 M3 (2001-2006) Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006.


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Old Fri, Jan-20-2017, 05:21:24 PM   #41
Obioban
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Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

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Originally Posted by dafoe View Post
Frank/TTFS is spot on here guys. It was my car, at the shop, with me, Frank, Stash1 and Austin (can't remember his forum user name), working with Frank most of the afternoon, and night until 2am...

On HIS dyno, not dynojet calibrated, my car did a base run at about 260ish whp (I was WAY wrong on the butt dyno!) and some GOD awful torque number like 230ish... Left with 340whp, and 278wtq. We found the cams were off by 8 degrees....
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Originally Posted by paulclaude View Post
I hear what you are saying - it does tend to be a fine line between exceeding the adaptation limit ('off the cliff') as you say, and getting things bang on the zero mark is a bit of a lottery. It's quite puzzling why they seem to have ground the cams like this - from what I can tell, 280/272's don't appear to have the same issues. But hey, at least the solution has been found using the correct approach. I've seen good results so far using the offset to correct things, as already mentioned
Dave, aren't you on 280/272s?
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Old Fri, Jan-20-2017, 05:37:05 PM   #42
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Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

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Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
Dave, aren't you on 280/272s?
No he is 288/280
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Old Fri, Jan-20-2017, 05:42:30 PM   #43
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Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

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Originally Posted by gearhead55 View Post
So now that the issue with cam timing is known is it possible for the TTFS guys to tune correctly remotely without tons of dyno time?

All this talk of hours on the dyno worries me. I'm out in California so would that mean strapping it to a dyno, datalogging a pull, sending that datalog over to TTFS, waiting a week, then getting on the dyno again for every trial and error change to cam timing?

I hope these 288/280s are worth the hassle...
They all seem to vary slightly, but the dyno time allows TTFS to find the sweet spot for optimal power.
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Old Fri, Jan-20-2017, 05:43:00 PM   #44
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Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

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Originally Posted by gearhead55 View Post
So now that the issue with cam timing is known is it possible for the TTFS guys to tune correctly remotely without tons of dyno time?

All this talk of hours on the dyno worries me. I'm out in California so would that mean strapping it to a dyno, datalogging a pull, sending that datalog over to TTFS, waiting a week, then getting on the dyno again for every trial and error change to cam timing?

I hope these 288/280s are worth the hassle...
We have a better understanding by looking more carefully and I believe we can start with a better base tune however the cam I indexed was a 288, on daves we had a 280 I think and I just worked the tune to get there. Again, I don't have all the answers, I am not even sure this was an issue with a certain batch of cams,
But with a good tool we could have a better place to start from. I would not expect anyone to sign up for hours of dyno tuning however as a tuner how can we justify hours on end of tuning on a product that we didn't build, we didn't install, and have no real way to know mechanically where it sits. Except for trial and error there is no real way to get it correct. Hint, Slim get to work!!
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Old Fri, Jan-20-2017, 05:55:32 PM   #45
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Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

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Originally Posted by TTFS View Post
Hey Paul,
It was 5 on the intake 3 on the exhaust. I set the adaptation to 2 degrees and worked back from there. In a perfect world I would have liked to set adaptation to 0 and park the cams but at that point you would need to get them closer mechanically, the play in the splines, chain ect and delay time between the cam sensor and the crank sensor won't let you get that close or at least I was not able to accomplish it. When I tried it went over the cliff so to speak so I settled for this approach.
Paul, I remembered you had also asked me about my settings before my cams took a dump. But this was the exact reason why! It was beyond my pay grade to get into any detail, since it was a direct consult with Frank.
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Old Fri, Jan-20-2017, 06:12:45 PM   #46
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Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

I dont understand why a normal degree wheel and dial indicator won't work... I mean just fit the degree wheel to the crank pulley find true tdc and degree ur cams :p what am I missing
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Old Fri, Jan-20-2017, 06:49:16 PM   #47
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Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

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Originally Posted by SliM3 View Post
Paul, I remembered you had also asked me about my settings before my cams took a dump. But this was the exact reason why! It was beyond my pay grade to get into any detail, since it was a direct consult with Frank.
No worries at all Brian. So simply put, you set adaptation limit to 1, and adjusted offsets/mechanical timing until adaptation became within range?
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Old Fri, Jan-20-2017, 07:21:12 PM   #48
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Default Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

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Originally Posted by HassanEido View Post
I dont understand why a normal degree wheel and dial indicator won't work... I mean just fit the degree wheel to the crank pulley find true tdc and degree ur cams :p what am I missing


Hass, working on it bro. It's a pretty tight fit, so I have to devise a way that's ideal for everyone. I'll undoubtedly have to remove the rad support for better pics, but still pretty tight. Plus belt removal!

For the wheel, I've come-up with a plan for a magnetic back that should fit around the pulley, onto the damper. Have to gauge the best location for the pointer so you can least see what the hell you're doing. In addition to an ideal spot on the valve train to set the dial dial gauge. Not a lot of accessible real estate up there either.

We can definitely tweak the procedure, amongst all these fine minds in here.




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Last edited by SliM3; Fri, Jan-20-2017 at 07:24:21 PM.
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Old Fri, Jan-20-2017, 07:37:56 PM   #49
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Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

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Originally Posted by SliM3 View Post
Hass, working on it bro. It's a pretty tight fit, so I have to devise a way that's ideal for everyone. I'll undoubtedly have to remove the rad support for better pics, but still pretty tight. Plus belt removal!

For the wheel, I've come-up with a plan for a magnetic back that should fit around the pulley, onto the damper. Have to gauge the best location for the pointer so you can least see what the hell you're doing. In addition to an ideal spot on the valve train to set the dial dial gauge. Not a lot of accessible real estate up there either.

We can definitely tweak the procedure, amongst all these fine minds in here.




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right.. all valid points.. I just swapped in the pressure relief valves into my cat cams the other day... and retiming the engine turning the crank with the wrench was hard enough.. barely enough clearance for my hands and wrench against the rad.. now imagine having to read a degree wheel hunshed over like that lol... and be accurate.. rearding the dial indicator mount.. maybe reuse the threaded holes to the valve cover for the mount..
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Last edited by HassanEido; Fri, Jan-20-2017 at 07:41:37 PM.
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Old Fri, Jan-20-2017, 11:34:17 PM   #50
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Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

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Originally Posted by HassanEido View Post
Oh man. That must've been a nurve wracking night but a great ending i guess. I can relate man, when I saw my baseline after the cams I needed to sit down . Regarding the butt dyno calibration , its why I laugh everytime someone installs a muffler or an intake and says it definatly pulls harder.. i suffered from miss calibrated butt dyno syndrome too. I thought the pulleys did quite well, when it was on the rollers it was next to no gains
Oh man, you have NO idea! I will NEVER say a car has more power based on on the butt dyno!

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Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
Dave, aren't you on 280/272s?
Yeah, I was buddy... A guy offered these to me via PM at a really good price, couldn't resist!
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Discussing Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power? in the E46 M3 (2001-2006) Forum - Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006. at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)