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E46 M3 (2001-2006) Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006.


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Old Wed, Oct-19-2016, 02:08:39 PM   #61
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Default Re: ("Subframe") RACP cracking and separation - How common, what models?

awesome work so far. plates look great!
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Old Wed, Oct-19-2016, 02:51:11 PM   #62
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Default Re: ("Subframe") RACP cracking and separation - How common, what models?

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Originally Posted by VinceSE2 View Post
I should have some pictures to share early next week. But until then, here's some information on the plan and progress regarding the VincePlates.



I'll be using a tweaked version of the outer layer of the first design, as the inner layer in the new, simplified, design.
And then add a nearly flat plate as the outer layer in the new simplified design.

This will leave me with three layers that can make up a few versions of the VincePlates.

1. The new, simplified, inner (#2) and outer layer (#3)
2. The "original", extended coverage, inner layer (#1) and the new simplified layer #2
3. Layers #1, #2 and #3 (for anyone who needs to patch up a seriously cracked RACP, or wants extra peace of mind)
4. Potentially only #2, or even just #3, if the cracks/damage is very limited as the VinceBar is being installed.

I'm pretty happy with this plan actually! And I hope it will be well received.

So what about the ETA?

Well if I keep feeling well, and the family situation allows, I'm pretty sure I'll have the design, templates and CAD files done within a couple of weeks.

But once the CAD files are done I'm honestly not sure how soon I'll be able to get them laser cut.
Probably by mid November or maybe towards the end of November. But there is a possibility it could be sooner.


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sounds great, vince. i think perhaps #2 is what i am after, since i only have the one hairline crack in the normal spot (left rear), and am doing the VinceBar.

peter
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Old Wed, Oct-19-2016, 03:41:50 PM   #63
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Default Re: ("Subframe") RACP cracking and separation - How common, what models?

Vince
It seems like you and I think a lot alike. I made my own plates. However I used a ball peen hammer to bend multiple bends to make them fit. It isn't that hard but it certainly isn't a production process. Of course that is how the Italians made bodies back in the day.
Tooling for these plates wouldn't be that expensive. Machine some solid alum blocks. You would need to do a progressive set of dies. A 20 ton hydraulic press would do it. Still slow but faster than hammering out each one or cutting, welding and grinding.
I also used pop rivets. Stainless 3/16 and I have a air driven riveter or else you can't pull them. Years ago I fixed the rear shock mounts on my E36 M3 and they are still fine so riveting works well. As well, manufacturers are riveting as well.
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Old Wed, Oct-19-2016, 08:12:31 PM   #64
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Default Re: ("Subframe") RACP cracking and separation - How common, what models?

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Vince

It seems like you and I think a lot alike. I made my own plates. However I used a ball peen hammer to bend multiple bends to make them fit. It isn't that hard but it certainly isn't a production process. Of course that is how the Italians made bodies back in the day.

Tooling for these plates wouldn't be that expensive. Machine some solid alum blocks. You would need to do a progressive set of dies. A 20 ton hydraulic press would do it. Still slow but faster than hammering out each one or cutting, welding and grinding.

I also used pop rivets. Stainless 3/16 and I have a air driven riveter or else you can't pull them. Years ago I fixed the rear shock mounts on my E36 M3 and they are still fine so riveting works well. As well, manufacturers are riveting as well.


Thanks for the guidance!
I hadn't thought about using a garage kind of hydraulic press like that, I've simply assumed it would take one of those huge stamping type presses.

I might look into this later on.


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Old Fri, Mar-17-2017, 06:48:01 PM   #65
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Default ("Subframe") RACP cracking and separation - How common, what models?

For those of you waiting for the VinceSkins (fka VincePlates) here's finally an update.

I've chosen a design philosophy, made almost all the paper and cardboard templates, and have now moved on to the steel templates. Or the prototypes if you will.

These steel templates will later be unfolded (which is why they're not welded at this time) in order to serve as templates for the CAD models.

At this time I have two skins done for the front and rear left side.

Still to be done on these skins is to establish the rivet hole pattern.

As far as possible I've decided to match the rivet holes to the spot weld locations, where ever it makes sense.

The main reasons being:
• Ensure I hit a double/multi layer area
• Address any potentially popped spot welds (it's proven to be pretty common) at the same time

The multi layer design of the VinceSkins provide:
• A very close fit against the underside of the RACP (hence "skins" rather than plates) made possible by the thinner sheet metal in each layer
• Digressive plate thickness providing a smooth stress transition
• Flexibility in terms of coverage and protection. Larger skins with more coverage for old RACP with existing cracks, and smaller skins for pristine, or replaced, RACP's with minimal or no cracks.
• Ability to mix and match skin layers to accommodate any special needs/requirements

That said, here are some pictures of the left rear mount with what I'd call an intermediate pair of skins.









(These are spacer plates filling up the recesses)





And here are some pictures of the left front mount with a pair of lower coverage skins










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Old Sun, Mar-19-2017, 05:38:09 PM   #66
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Default Re: ("Subframe") RACP cracking and separation - How common, what models?

Vince,
Looks nice! Will you have to drop the fuel tank to do the install? And what's the ETA?

Thanks​
Jonathan
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Old Sun, Mar-19-2017, 05:54:16 PM   #67
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Default Re: ("Subframe") RACP cracking and separation - How common, what models?

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Originally Posted by forzanerazzurri View Post
I think based on all the evidence and given how old the cars are getting its safe to assume you have cracking until proven otherwise. Its just crazy that something this serious was missed in the engineering and development of the car. I mean the ability for the RACP to withstand the demands of the car should be a pretty low level requirement for any car company.
Vince, this is a huge undertaking and shows how much you care about this platform. My respect goes to you for your efforts!

My '02 M3 with 135k miles (very limited autocross/track time prior to my ownership and 0 under mine) had cracks around the forward, passenger side mounting bolt hole, invisible until the bolt was removed and the mount lowered. Very discouraging for a vehicle that really had gentle street driving, but the less than perfect road conditions were listed as a possible reason for the destruction. Where are there places with perfect (smooth) roads? A friend told me about his 330i ZHP that suffered failure, too.

For a car with such capabilities (lateral loads, track use potential, etc.) and supposed reinforcement over the normal E46 chassis, this is not an acceptable situation. It is also a safety issue. If GM had an issue with this, it would be all over the press and there would be class action lawsuit threats (I also owned two, yes two, GM Chevrolet Citations, so I understand about these things - look for brake lockup lawsuit). BMW seems not to be too concerned.

I sold mine because of this (just after I had the rod bearing replaced on the motor - which fell under the SA for rod bearings, so this was the second replacement - which seldom saw redline and which was not driven aggressively until at full normal operating temperature). It's too bad, because it was in many ways my favorite, and probably best, car ever.
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Old Sun, Mar-19-2017, 06:47:02 PM   #68
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Default Re: ("Subframe") RACP cracking and separation - How common, what models?

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Originally Posted by silbul View Post
Vince, this is a huge undertaking and shows how much you care about this platform. My respect goes to you for your efforts!

My '02 M3 with 135k miles (very limited autocross/track time prior to my ownership and 0 under mine) had cracks around the forward, passenger side mounting bolt hole, invisible until the bolt was removed and the mount lowered. Very discouraging for a vehicle that really had gentle street driving, but the less than perfect road conditions were listed as a possible reason for the destruction. Where are there places with perfect (smooth) roads? A friend told me about his 330i ZHP that suffered failure, too.

For a car with such capabilities (lateral loads, track use potential, etc.) and supposed reinforcement over the normal E46 chassis, this is not an acceptable situation. It is also a safety issue. If GM had an issue with this, it would be all over the press and there would be class action lawsuit threats (I also owned two, yes two, GM Chevrolet Citations, so I understand about these things - look for brake lockup lawsuit). BMW seems not to be too concerned.

I sold mine because of this (just after I had the rod bearing replaced on the motor - which fell under the SA for rod bearings, so this was the second replacement - which seldom saw redline and which was not driven aggressively until at full normal operating temperature). It's too bad, because it was in many ways my favorite, and probably best, car ever.
Was wondering if you were still around. You posted more frequently years ago. Now I understand why you don't.
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Old Sun, Mar-19-2017, 09:56:33 PM   #69
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Default ("Subframe") RACP cracking and separation - How common, what models?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 90mtx View Post
Vince,
Looks nice! Will you have to drop the fuel tank to do the install? And what's the ETA?

Thanks​
Jonathan

Well, I guess you could get away with not dropping the tank, if you really wanted to. But it would be very tricky to clean off all the dirt and grime, as well as grind off the paint.

And you need to be very serious about clean and prepped surfaces to secure a strong bond.

Regarding ETA, as soon as I can. The details just keep taking longer than I anticipate...



Quote:
Originally Posted by silbul View Post
Vince, this is a huge undertaking and shows how much you care about this platform. My respect goes to you for your efforts!

My '02 M3 with 135k miles (very limited autocross/track time prior to my ownership and 0 under mine) had cracks around the forward, passenger side mounting bolt hole, invisible until the bolt was removed and the mount lowered. Very discouraging for a vehicle that really had gentle street driving, but the less than perfect road conditions were listed as a possible reason for the destruction. Where are there places with perfect (smooth) roads? A friend told me about his 330i ZHP that suffered failure, too.

For a car with such capabilities (lateral loads, track use potential, etc.) and supposed reinforcement over the normal E46 chassis, this is not an acceptable situation. It is also a safety issue. If GM had an issue with this, it would be all over the press and there would be class action lawsuit threats (I also owned two, yes two, GM Chevrolet Citations, so I understand about these things - look for brake lockup lawsuit). BMW seems not to be too concerned.

I sold mine because of this (just after I had the rod bearing replaced on the motor - which fell under the SA for rod bearings, so this was the second replacement - which seldom saw redline and which was not driven aggressively until at full normal operating temperature). It's too bad, because it was in many ways my favorite, and probably best, car ever.

Thank you very much for the recognition and encouragement!

I'm really sorry to hear that you sold your E46 M3!
I can certainly understand your frustration, but I'm still sorry you sold it.

I share your opinion about the crappy design, and how BMW has gotten away with this all too easily. This, along with the Vanos issues and the wear-item-rod bearings, is such a shame on an otherwise great platform!

But it's also at least as bad that so many people are either ignorant, or in denial about the RACP issue. Or believe that plates and/or foam is all that's needed.

Anyway, if you ever buy another E46 M3, be sure to hit me up and I'll set you up with a nice deal on the VinceBar kit!



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Old Fri, Mar-24-2017, 04:33:31 PM   #70
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Default ("Subframe") RACP cracking and separation - How common, what models?

Here's an update on the progress of the VinceSkins.

1. I've decided how to package the different sized skins into "stages". Please see the sample pictures below.
Although the layers can be customized to the liking of the buyer, the layers will need to be matched to each other.
So in the interest of keeping this fairly simple I'll be building and stocking these standard "stages". Anything else will be custom.

2. I've updated (to match the layers/stages shown below) and finished the paper templates for the rear right mount.

These sample pictures are of the rear left mount. The skins are not welded as they'll be used as final templates for the CAD models.

The stages are intended for the span: new/undamaged/minor hairline cracks -> cracks and damage over a larger area

Stage 1



Stage 2



Stage 3



Stage 4



A potential stage 5 (if there's interest/need for such) would be like the prototypes I installed earlier in this thread.

EDIT: something like this





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Discussing ("Subframe") RACP cracking and separation - How common, what models? in the E46 M3 (2001-2006) Forum - Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006. at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)