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E46 M3 (2001-2006) Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006.


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Old Sun, Jul-31-2016, 10:56:20 AM   #31
VinceSE2
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Default Group buy VinceBar - laser cut components

Quote:
Originally Posted by 90mtx View Post
Super interested in this, need to sell it to the wife. I have read most of the associated threads, but to clarify/confirm if I buy the complete kit (front gusset and rear bar) and install kit I would still need reinforcement plates as well to be as covered as you could get with out the Mason X Bar? Vince, do you not recommend a specific type or brand of plates?

Anyone in the Jacksonville, Florida area looking at doing this to split shipping costs?

Thanks
Jonathan

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Yes, I still strongly recommend plates on the underside.

BUT, you have been falsely informed if you believe the Mason bar somehow is enough without underside plates. The Mason bar does not add any additional RACP reinforcement or load relief compared to the VinceBar kit. In fact, and yes I'm certainly biased, it does less for the RACP as it does not address the front mounts, and it transfers the rear mount load through the shock tower (adding stress to it) while the VinceBar provides a shorter and much more direct load path to the chassis leg.

That said, the Mason brace certainly adds a lot more torsional rigidity to the rear end. And this is what I believe was the main intent with it. Certainly if one only has the shock tower bar (and not the brace that ties into the rear mounts).

So, back to your question about the plates.

The main reasons I still recommend underside plates are:
• To spread the compression load that the front mounts (especially the right one) are subject to. The factory situation has that load partially applied to the 0,75mm thin skin of the RACP, which is the reason that mount is so often completely trashed. Se picture below.
• There is likely some cracks present before you install the VinceBar, or the Mason bar/brace, and I believe those cracks should be stop drilled and either, welded and covered by a welded plate, or covered by a late that is epoxied (as probably also riveted) such that the crack is embedded in epoxy.

Of the commercially available plates I know of I definitely recommend the Redish plates any day. They are just so much better in terms of thickness (not too thick) and coverage.
The Redish plates are however not easy to correctly install with epoxy as they are designed to be welded and formed during installation.

That's why I welded mine to my personal car. And why I'm now looking into offering a design of my own that's specifically meant to be epoxied.

I hope that helps you.
Vince

Picture of trashed right front mount


And another one


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Last edited by VinceSE2; Sun, Jul-31-2016 at 11:03:52 AM.
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Old Sun, Jul-31-2016, 01:01:00 PM   #32
90mtx
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Default Re: Group buy VinceBar - laser cut components

Vince,
Thanks for the quick reply, when does the group buy officially end, 12AUG? Like I said, need to convince the wife. How many people have reserved or otherwise said they will purchase a kit? Do you have an ETA for your epoxied in plates being available. Very interested in those as well!
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Old Sun, Jul-31-2016, 10:18:22 PM   #33
VinceSE2
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Default Group buy VinceBar - laser cut components

Quote:
Originally Posted by 90mtx View Post
Vince,
Thanks for the quick reply, when does the group buy officially end, 12AUG? Like I said, need to convince the wife. How many people have reserved or otherwise said they will purchase a kit? Do you have an ETA for your epoxied in plates being available. Very interested in those as well!


I honestly haven't set a firm end date yet , but I'm thinking August 31st should be reasonable. Even though I've been hoping to get support (in terms of deposits) for the initial purchase of the laser cut components, I realize that some people might want to see the product before committing. So ending the group buy a couple of weeks after I receive the laser cut components, and I've assembled one kit of each, should be reasonable.

But again, I kindly ask anyone who is considering to get one of these to seriously consider doing so now. The success, or lack there of, will determine how I proceed with this initiative.

As this is not a very exciting, nor "sexy", product it could be a hard sell to your wife . But if she appreciates the idea of protecting the value of your M, and avoiding future big dollar expenses, it might work .

As far as I'm concerned your part of the group buy as soon as I receive a deposit. It could be less than a 50% deposit if that helps, and final payment and delivery could be after the group buy ends.

So far I have a total of 10 orders, of which I've received the deposit for 7 of them.

You can follow the progress in post #2.

Vince


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Old Sun, Jul-31-2016, 11:59:35 PM   #34
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Default Re: Group buy VinceBar - laser cut components

Looks great sir, you can add me to the undecided list as of right now, but definitely on the smg relocation kit, feel free to pm me total combined cost and update on that if you would like, thanks
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Old Mon, Aug-01-2016, 04:52:08 AM   #35
2004LSB
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Default Re: Group buy VinceBar - laser cut components

Wow this looks great! Thinking about pulling the trigger on a set. However I do have some questions about the weld kit:

1.) I have the Turner plates welded in a few years ago. For your kit, is extensive disassembly and reassembly of the rear axle required? From what it looks like, only removal of the rear seats and carpeting of the trunk floor is needed.

2.) If I were to have a professional shop do the job, how much time is required to weld everything together? Will a detailed set of instructions be included?

3.) Will injection of structural foam be needed to maximize effectiveness of your kit?

4.) Lastly, is this a 100% bulletproof option for the RACP failure? Will this kit combined with the Turner plates offer complete protection?

Thanks Vince for your hard work and research!
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Old Mon, Aug-01-2016, 10:17:44 PM   #36
VinceSE2
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Default Re: Group buy VinceBar - laser cut components

Quote:
Originally Posted by 90mtx View Post
Vince,
Thanks for the quick reply, when does the group buy officially end, 12AUG? Like I said, need to convince the wife. How many people have reserved or otherwise said they will purchase a kit? Do you have an ETA for your epoxied in plates being available. Very interested in those as well!

Sorry, I just noticed I didn't respond to your question about the formed and epoxied plates I'm planning for.
At this time I don't have an ETA. But I'll be able to give you a reasonable estimate once I've sourced the RACP I'll use to develop them. Possibly, maybe late September?

I'll be sure to give you a returning customer discount when they're available. And if your not in a terrible hurry for the VinceBar kit I could ship it all in the same box.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboyM3 View Post
Looks great sir, you can add me to the undecided list as of right now, but definitely on the smg relocation kit, feel free to pm me total combined cost and update on that if you would like, thanks

Sure, I'll send you a PM in the next couple of days.
As I still haven't pulled my personal car apart (attending some track days and don't want to risk not getting it back together in time) I still have a couple of things to verify before I can commit to a price.
Thanks for bearing with me!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2004LSB View Post
Wow this looks great! Thinking about pulling the trigger on a set. However I do have some questions about the weld kit:

1.) I have the Turner plates welded in a few years ago. For your kit, is extensive disassembly and reassembly of the rear axle required? From what it looks like, only removal of the rear seats and carpeting of the trunk floor is needed.

2.) If I were to have a professional shop do the job, how much time is required to weld everything together? Will a detailed set of instructions be included?

3.) Will injection of structural foam be needed to maximize effectiveness of your kit?

4.) Lastly, is this a 100% bulletproof option for the RACP failure? Will this kit combined with the Turner plates offer complete protection?

Thanks Vince for your hard work and research!

1.
In order to get the OE front studs out you will need to lower the rear axle/subframe about 3-4 inches. But that's actually pretty easy once the exhaust and under body panels are removed.
You will also need the "long drill bit" version of the tool kit.
You'll find more details in this thread: http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=546116

2.
I don't recommend the weld install version of the kit if you don't completely remove the rear axle/subframe. I just feel that the rust proofing required, after the welds burn off paint and wax, justifies removing the rear axle.

And I won't estimate the time required for a shop that hasn't done the procedure before. I'll just prove myself wrong.

But both the requirements to completely remove the rear axle, and have a shop install and weld, are some of the reasons I developed the epoxy/rivet version. It's much more DIY-friendly.

If I were to do my personal car at this time, I'd certainly choose the epoxy/rivet version. But at the time I did my personal car I hadn't even considered developing such a version.

I'll be putting together a detailed instruction, but I can't promise an ETA at this time.

3.
No. In fact I find the foam to be redundant if you already have the TMS plates. You can read more about that in this thread:
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showt...p?p=1067164063

4.
To the best of my knowledge and understanding, yes.
But this assumes there is no unattended damage present at the time of the installation of the VinceBar kit.
And it would have been even better if you had the Redish plates (as they have superior coverage, are welded furter away from the mount, and are thinner).

I hope that helps you and that you feel comfortable joining the group buy!




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Old Tue, Aug-02-2016, 06:40:09 PM   #37
2004LSB
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Default Re: Group buy VinceBar - laser cut components

Mr. Vince!

Thanks for the updated information. I didn't realize how involved this job would be (even for the epoxy method) and since I have very little to no experience with fabrication, I will most likely have this done at a shop. I'll have to contact a few places to see what my options are, and what they prefer to work with.

In the meantime definitely count me in for a kit! I guess I'll PM you later once I get more specifics whether I'll be going with the weld-in or epoxy kit? How much deposit is required? Also, do you have a rough estimate for delivery? I definitely don't need this in a rush as I'll need to save up some funds to have this professionally installed.
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Old Wed, Aug-03-2016, 10:49:35 PM   #38
Brian N
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Default Re: Group buy VinceBar - laser cut components

I will be joining this group buy for the VinceBar. I was the first person to install his front bolts a while back and he has been incredible with his support, and I'm amazed what he continues to develop for this community. After years of debating whether to do plates, foam or both we finally (in my opinion) have the ultimate solution.

I am just debating on what kit to get but I am 100% in!
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Old Wed, Aug-03-2016, 10:52:29 PM   #39
JaredMV
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Default Re: Group buy VinceBar - laser cut components

Debating whether I'm in or not... time to think about putting money aside!
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Old Wed, Aug-03-2016, 11:27:15 PM   #40
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Default Re: Group buy VinceBar - laser cut components

For welding a kit in, who do you guys suggest? Is it worth taking to a local indy or finding a mobile welder? Maybe a body shop?
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Discussing Closed - Group buy VinceBar ("subframe" fix) in the E46 M3 (2001-2006) Forum - Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006. at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)