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E90 M3 (Sedan) | E92 M3 (Coupe) | E93 M3 (Convertible) (2008-2013) {Engine: S65 - Max Hp: 414 hp (420 hp Euro) at 8,300 rpm / 295 lb/ft at 3,900 rpm}


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Old Mon, Jan-02-2017, 09:16:34 PM   #51
PencilGeek
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Default Re: New m3 and rod bearings

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Originally Posted by Rez View Post
Assuming that majority of cars with original BMW bearing won't fail, almost all the bearings removed looked "bad". The question was asked because the original bearings are largely being judged by their appearance, excessive wear. It is not clear if any of the bearings that were replaced were distant to fail, it is mainly an assumption.
Many bearings that have been replaced have been deemed on the verge of imminent failure. Beatings that are wiped all 180 degrees down to copper are on the verge of imminent failure. There's been plenty of these seen.

Quote:
It is nice to look at the graphs and analysis that you provided but the ultimate proof is cars with BE bearings showing statistically less failure than original ones. I am also curious to see how they look compared with original ones after similar mileage of driving.
It will take a few years before anything like this will be available.

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Why would you think BMW did not do what you have done with all their resources and reputation on the line? Why would they spec the bearings so tight for it to fail on their super expensive engines?
I believe BMW bought into a bunch of politically correct engine designing philosophies. Tighter clearances are known to make the engine quieter, and known to get slightly better gas mileage. Given idiotic government meddling and micromanaging in the auto industry, if you were BMW and about to introduce a very low gas mileage, high strung, naturally aspirated V10/V8, you might be willing to do anything you can to mitigate the political backlash from the EU snobs and American EPA. But in the process of going this direction, BMW chose a clearance that is far under industry recommendations and best practices. Long established engine designs, and those recommended by Clevite themselves, are to use 0.001 inch clearance per rod-journal inch diameter. BMW chose roughtly 70% that value (0.00071). Some engines have been disassembled and measured at less than 60% that value. Most engine builders consider that dangerously too little clearance.

To your second question: why didn't BMW do what we did? I personally believe they would be slapped with a class action lawsuit the moment they changed the design to "fix" it. If they quietly changed the clearance to industry accepted best practices, everybody that doesn't have those bearings will now demand them. A class action lawsuit would be launched almost immediately IMO. It's probably cheaper for BMW to wait out the warranty claims, replace engines under good will, than to go through a class action lawsuit, lose, and issue a recall for 65000 engines. So it's pure business economics why BMW wouldn't do it IMO.
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Old Tue, Jan-03-2017, 12:04:15 AM   #52
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Default New m3 and rod bearings

^ Good thoughts. I am a bit stuck as my car is still under warranty for another year and half so keeping things stock makes sense. Hopefully by then you have more data that would make doing this an easy decision.
I do remember BMW doing the bearing recall on 2001-2003 S54 engines with some change in bearings for 2003.5 models and above so correction mid cycle is not unheard of. Not sure their logic for material change with no change in clearance for 2011.5 S65 bearing?!
Also what is the explanation for such small percentage failure on a design flaw that should result in much higher failure rate?
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Old Tue, Jan-03-2017, 01:17:58 AM   #53
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Default Re: New m3 and rod bearings

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Not sure their logic for material change with no change in clearance for 2011.5 S65 bearing?!
I believe the change in materials was done to satisfy the RoHS standards put into effect; no lead.
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Old Wed, Jan-04-2017, 03:50:25 AM   #54
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Default Re: New m3 and rod bearings

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Originally Posted by Rez View Post
Not sure their logic for material change with no change in clearance for 2011.5 S65 bearing?!
EU regulations went into effect for 2011 that forbid lead in vehicle bearings. The irony was there's an exception for vehicles already in production. Anyways, that's why they changed the materials.

Quote:
Also what is the explanation for such small percentage failure on a design flaw that should result in much higher failure rate?
I think it is consistent. If you start with a design that is on the hairy edge, so long as there is no tolerance stack-up, then most vehicles will survive. But as soon as you take a rod journal that's on the large side but still within spec, and mate it with a bearing on the thick side also within spec, then the tolerances stack up and you end up with dangerous clearance. I believe that's why engines go boom within 20000 miles, or they don't go boom for a very long time. With tolerance stack up, they go boom; without it, they last much longer.
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Old Fri, Jan-06-2017, 01:02:56 AM   #55
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Default Re: New m3 and rod bearings

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EU regulations went into effect for 2011 that forbid lead in vehicle bearings. The irony was there's an exception for vehicles already in production. Anyways, that's why they changed the materials.



I think it is consistent. If you start with a design that is on the hairy edge, so long as there is no tolerance stack-up, then most vehicles will survive. But as soon as you take a rod journal that's on the large side but still within spec, and mate it with a bearing on the thick side also within spec, then the tolerances stack up and you end up with dangerous clearance. I believe that's why engines go boom within 20000 miles, or they don't go boom for a very long time. With tolerance stack up, they go boom; without it, they last much longer.
Makes sense, thanks for your insight.
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Old Sat, Jan-21-2017, 02:52:58 PM   #56
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Default New m3 and rod bearings

Dumb question. Does ambient temperature during engine start plays into this issue?

Meaning, if I start a 2013 M3 with 10-60 oil during northeast 10 degree winter day, vs starting that same engine during a 70-90 degree days, would the bearing tolerance design and requirement be the same?

Follow up question - does anyone know if the bearing damage occur while the engine is at running temperature?

Yet another dump related question, if you start the engine and let it idle until warm up - then drive - will it be different damage than starting and hitting 6000 RPM?

Thanks and sorry if this has been asked before

Rami - 2013 E92 Comp.


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Old Sat, Jan-21-2017, 09:30:33 PM   #57
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Default Re: New m3 and rod bearings

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
Dumb question. Does ambient temperature during engine start plays into this issue?

Meaning, if I start a 2013 M3 with 10-60 oil during northeast 10 degree winter day, vs starting that same engine during a 70-90 degree days, would the bearing tolerance design and requirement be the same?

Follow up question - does anyone know if the bearing damage occur while the engine is at running temperature?

Yet another dump related question, if you start the engine and let it idle until warm up - then drive - will it be different damage than starting and hitting 6000 RPM?

Thanks and sorry if this has been asked before

Rami - 2013 E92 Comp.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
As someone considering moving from California to the south or east coast to escape the COL, these questions are all of the sudden relevant to me as well lol.
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Old Sat, Jan-21-2017, 11:36:08 PM   #58
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Default Re: New m3 and rod bearings

Cars in hot climates have issues just like all the others. Driving a cold engine abusively won't help it.
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Old Thu, Mar-02-2017, 07:00:17 PM   #59
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Default Re: New m3 and rod bearings

Update: Just replaced my Rod Bearing with the WPC treated ones. My car has 61k miles on it and I can say with confidence that I didn't have that much time left. When the old ones came out they were visibly worn (Could almost see copper on 3-4 of them, there even seemed to be a chip on one.
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Old Fri, Mar-03-2017, 06:52:43 PM   #60
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Default Re: New m3 and rod bearings

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Originally Posted by Rez View Post
^ Good thoughts. I am a bit stuck as my car is still under warranty for another year and half so keeping things stock makes sense. Hopefully by then you have more data that would make doing this an easy decision.
I do remember BMW doing the bearing recall on 2001-2003 S54 engines with some change in bearings for 2003.5 models and above so correction mid cycle is not unheard of. Not sure their logic for material change with no change in clearance for 2011.5 S65 bearing?!
Also what is the explanation for such small percentage failure on a design flaw that should result in much higher failure rate?
Here's a question that may be a stupid one, and if this is covered elsewhere I apologize, but what exactly do you experience with a rod bearing "failure" as a driver? Does your vehicle stop?
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Discussing New m3 and rod bearings in the E90 M3 (Sedan) | E92 M3 (Coupe) | E93 M3 (Convertible) (2008-2013) Forum - {Engine: S65 - Max Hp: 414 hp (420 hp Euro) at 8,300 rpm / 295 lb/ft at 3,900 rpm} at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)