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Old Mon, Mar-25-2019, 10:22:21 PM   #41
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Default Re: FEELER: Cat-Cams' Camshaft Group-Buy Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYRARCH04 View Post
Could someone enlighten me as to why anyone would chose a milder 280/272 over the 288/280? Why go through all the hassle and expense and not get the most power out of it? Is there a drive-ability concern with the hotter cams? Do you sacrifice bottom end for top end, or something like that?
280/272
- Overall cheaper if you don't replace followers. Many guys on here are running on the original followers with the 280/272 with no issues -- this is a huge selling point (followers are the bulk of the cost).
- in theory, both will shift power curves to the right, but these should be geared more to mid range power gains as opposed to the higher top end gains seen with the 288/280. Both have much more aggressive durations than stock though, so both will show larger gains up top and with good tuning, both can be tuned to produce larger deltas everywhere.
- Less friction wear than the 288/280
- Less reported tuning problems. In fact, you can still drive your car to the dyno after installation of these on the base tune prior to tuning for these. Although with an experienced tuner like Paul-Claude, both can be tuned just fine. The 288/280 is closer to the limit of the VANOS so you will want to be sure your VANOS is timed right and not "lazy".
- These are more focused on street/light track use. Meaning you won't sacrofice as much low end (although both will gain over stock) as compared to the 288/280. If you don't plan on raising your redline (where the 288/280 really shines) than 280/272 might be the better option for you.
- Once again, all in all with followers and wear, etc...these tend to be less demanding, more cost affective, and produce fantastic gains...especially for a car that has a factory redline.
- With optimized exhaust and supporting mods, guys like Hassan are showing that the 280/272 cams can produce close to similar gains as the 288/280 (although, I'd like to see what his car would do with the 288/280 to really compare). As it sits, Hassan's car is making 368.5whp (and tuner Paul-Claude after looking at his tune, said his tune wasn't optimized well and that more power is left on the table). Guy's like Paul-Claude, Stash1 and Nickpiper are making mid 370s (best I've seen is Paul's 377). Keeping in mind all these guys have different supporting setups and are on different dynos...ect. So I am not sure how comparable this really is and if any direct conclusions can be drawn without doing a back-to-back cam swap tune and dyno session on the same car.

288/280
- Tend to be more expensive as a package because the current dogma is that these cams should be accompanied with new followers -- which can double the total cost compared to the 280/272.
- For cars that are tracked, or have the redline raised, or are driven at the top of the RPM range -- These are the superior cams.
- With good tuning, these can produce better gains everywhere in the RPM range compared to the 280/272 but will require your car to be in good health prior to installation.
- With increased duration comes increased friction interval, so more friction per rotation, which might mean more wear on the rocker arms and cams -- which is why DLC coated rocker arms (followers) is recommended.
- Less static compression, since more overlap will leak compression. This can be largely tuned out with VANOS (but expect slightly harder starts).
- Lopy idle on cold starts but then settles down once warm (probably can be tuned out as well...or tuned in, in the case of Stash1).
- If you have a competent tuner and want the most out of your S54 (while retaining VANOS) and don't mind the cost being doubled due to followers being recommended, and the possibility of increased wear -- the cars that show the biggest numbers across the board tend to have the 288/280 installed. That being said, the risk is that without competent tuning, you might show no real gains over the 280/272 (could even be worse) and with all the other potential negatives as mentioned...including the possibility of lower low-end torque if VANOS isn't mapped properly.

*Credit given to Hassan for helping me generate this list.

There are tons of threads on this topic however and I'd encourage you all to read up on them to help you decide which one is better for your application. One size doesn't fit all. There is not necessarily a "best" answer here. It comes down to the individual application.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BBRTuning View Post
If one chooses to not get new followers/shafts etc., and just purchase cams (along with seals and whatever else) I assume these cams can drop in without any other modifications?
Yep. Just need to transfer over the pressure regulator valve and from the stock cams to the new set. You'll need new valve cover gaskets, ect. as well. It's like doing VANOS to an extent (which if VANOS hasn't been done, one should do both VANOS and cams at the same time).
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Old Mon, Mar-25-2019, 10:25:53 PM   #42
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Default Re: FEELER: Cat-Cams' Camshaft Group-Buy Thread

1. Radekxpl 272/280 zip 06418
2. Good, 280/272 Cams Only, zip 91302
3. Whips333, 280/272 + followers for now zip 06053
4. jbfrancis3, 280/272, no followers, zip 22066
5. samgrant951, 280/272, no followers, zip 46240
6. Topaz_46, 288/280 + followers, V0E 2G5
7. Nugs, 288/280 + followers + shaft, Australia 6003
8. Apex_3472, 280/272, no followers
9. Rbmwiv, 280/272 cams only. Zip 28043 (likely pick-up)
10. AtsAntone, 288/280 no followers, 94550
11. RBG, 280/272 no followers, NC, 27514
12. Dutchhome, 280/272, no followers, maybe oil bridge and follower rails, zip 19711
13. Jevi Javi, 280/272 only, 33166
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Old Mon, Mar-25-2019, 10:47:51 PM   #43
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Default Re: FEELER: Cat-Cams' Camshaft Group-Buy Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYRARCH04 View Post
Could someone enlighten me as to why anyone would chose a milder 280/272 over the 288/280? Why go through all the hassle and expense and not get the most power out of it? Is there a drive-ability concern with the hotter cams? Do you sacrifice bottom end for top end, or something like that?
In my case I'm on the hook for new cams and followers anyway. I've already sourced the followers so all I need are cams. I'm fairly certain the followers I have are DLC treated but I have no way to know 100%. That leaves me with stock cams or 280/272. Since the best price for stock cams are the same price for Schrick (around $1600), this puts me in a new set for half the price. I'd actually prefer the Schrick cams but based on good experiences from people on cat-cams on the S54 I'm willing to save the $800.

I'm just finishing up the rod bearings and still have the vanos to rebuild so that $800 is looking pretty sweet.
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Old Mon, Mar-25-2019, 10:54:04 PM   #44
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Default Re: FEELER: Cat-Cams' Camshaft Group-Buy Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchhome View Post
In my case I'm on the hook for new cams and followers anyway. I've already sourced the followers so all I need are cams. I'm fairly certain the followers I have are DLC treated but I have no way to know 100%. That leaves me with stock cams or 280/272. Since the best price for stock cams are the same price for Schrick (around $1600), this puts me in a new set for half the price. I'd actually prefer the Schrick cams but based on good experiences from people on cat-cams on the S54 I'm willing to save the $800.

I'm just finishing up the rod bearings and still have the vanos to rebuild so that $800 is looking pretty sweet.
Well join in.

We have almost hit the minimum numbers for cams. Still waiting on a couple people to add their name to the list in the correct format.
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Old Mon, Mar-25-2019, 10:55:44 PM   #45
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Default Re: FEELER: Cat-Cams' Camshaft Group-Buy Thread

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Originally Posted by Dr M3an M3 View Post
Well join in.



We have almost hit the minimum numbers for cams. Still waiting on a couple people to add their name to the list in the correct format.
I'm in already :-)
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Old Mon, Mar-25-2019, 10:56:43 PM   #46
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Default Re: FEELER: Cat-Cams' Camshaft Group-Buy Thread

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Originally Posted by dutchhome View Post
I'm in already :-)
Oh My mistake!! Thank you for the support!! =)
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Old Tue, Mar-26-2019, 12:43:58 AM   #47
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Default Re: FEELER: Cat-Cams' Camshaft Group-Buy Thread

So basically triple the price if I wanted to go 288/280. Trying to be responsible is hard.
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Old Tue, Mar-26-2019, 12:50:21 AM   #48
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Default Re: FEELER: Cat-Cams' Camshaft Group-Buy Thread

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Originally Posted by Kwakjoe View Post
So basically triple the price if I wanted to go 288/280. Trying to be responsible is hard.

I am also working on offering an OE BMW follower option which will be cheaper than the cat cam coated followers.

Cam for cam cost, they are the same. The price increases so much with the 288/280 due to adding followers. If you need followers due to wear on your current ones, the cost is the same regardless of which cam duration you choose. Or...You could be a maverick and roll the dice with the 288/280s without changing the followers. Essentially that is what guys are doing when they don't swap them on the 280/272 setup....Taking that chance. I'm sure it's been done before (although I can't recommend it nor do I take any responsibility for what follows).
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Mods: Genuine OE CSL Bumper, Both Karbonius and Streamline CSL Airboxes, OE CSL Snorkel w/ working Flap, OE Map Sensor + OE Air Rail, Paul Claude Custom Tune, CSL Engine management with CSL converted DME, Supersprint V1 Stepped Headers w/ Oversized HJS Race Catted section 1, SS 2.5" Twin-Piped Oversized Custom section 2, Custom Oversized Supersprint muffler, Catcam's Billet 280/272 cams, WPC treated rod-bearings, VinceBar (weld) + Redish Plates, Full Beisan VANOS lockdown, BBS LMs w/ PSS, Brembo GT6 (front) + GT4 (rear) BBK, CSL style CF diffuser, Vorsteiner CF CSL Bootlid, CSL SMG Engine DME tune, CSL '255' SMG DME tune, SMG Pump Relocated.
For Sale: BNIB OE CSL Wheels
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Old Tue, Mar-26-2019, 01:22:16 AM   #49
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Default Re: FEELER: Cat-Cams' Camshaft Group-Buy Thread

I would like to join this group buy.

vwrado, 280/272 Cams Only, zip 92841
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Old Tue, Mar-26-2019, 01:44:05 AM   #50
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Default Re: FEELER: Cat-Cams' Camshaft Group-Buy Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by vwrado View Post
I would like to join this group buy.

vwrado, 280/272 Cams Only, zip 92841
Thanks for the support...but come on guys, please make this easy on me and copy the list above and add your name to the bottom.

1. Radekxpl 272/280 zip 06418
2. Good, 280/272 Cams Only, zip 91302
3. Whips333, 280/272 + followers for now zip 06053
4. jbfrancis3, 280/272, no followers, zip 22066
5. samgrant951, 280/272, no followers, zip 46240
6. Topaz_46, 288/280 + followers, V0E 2G5
7. Nugs, 288/280 + followers + shaft, Australia 6003
8. Apex_3472, 280/272, no followers
9. Rbmwiv, 280/272 cams only. Zip 28043 (likely pick-up)
10. AtsAntone, 288/280 no followers, 94550
11. RBG, 280/272 no followers, NC, 27514
12. Dutchhome, 280/272, no followers, maybe oil bridge and follower rails, zip 19711
13. Jevi Javi, 280/272 only, 33166
14. vwrado, 280/272 Cams Only, zip 92841
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Mods: Genuine OE CSL Bumper, Both Karbonius and Streamline CSL Airboxes, OE CSL Snorkel w/ working Flap, OE Map Sensor + OE Air Rail, Paul Claude Custom Tune, CSL Engine management with CSL converted DME, Supersprint V1 Stepped Headers w/ Oversized HJS Race Catted section 1, SS 2.5" Twin-Piped Oversized Custom section 2, Custom Oversized Supersprint muffler, Catcam's Billet 280/272 cams, WPC treated rod-bearings, VinceBar (weld) + Redish Plates, Full Beisan VANOS lockdown, BBS LMs w/ PSS, Brembo GT6 (front) + GT4 (rear) BBK, CSL style CF diffuser, Vorsteiner CF CSL Bootlid, CSL SMG Engine DME tune, CSL '255' SMG DME tune, SMG Pump Relocated.
For Sale: BNIB OE CSL Wheels
Active Group-Buys (PM if Interested):
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Discussing FEELER: Cat-Cams' Camshaft Group-Buy Thread in the Parts for Sale/Wanted Forum - Post your Parts Wanted, and non commercial bmw related items for sale. We ask that companies selling goods become a Sponsor to advertise your goods. at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)