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E46 M3 (2001-2006) Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006.


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Old Thu, Oct-11-2018, 08:12:52 PM   #181
cozmo kraemer
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

I think BMW could have kept the E46M formula and made modern cars from that. It wouldn't have to be the fastest car they made, but offer the most feedback and driving experience. That is why I was so disappointed with the M2. Here I thought they were going to put E46M type characteristics into a modern chassis/package, and they basically just built a smaller M4...

Follow the Porsche - evolution not revolution - model and move the car forward. Keep it NA as long as possible, keep it I6 as long as possible, keep the feel and dynamics forever. Evolve the things that change (chassis and suspension tech, materials, electronics tech, safety), thus the car gets stiffer, slightly more powerful, and safer, while remaining the same or losing weight.

They could easily have a 400hp I6 na M2 with a stiff chassis modern suspension and luxury features, on a lighter stiffer chassis, that meets modern safety guidelines. Thus satisfying the enthusiast base that built their company and not stepping on the M4's toes with a car that goes fast without you noticing. It would probably be low volume enough for them not to have to worry as much about efficiency and the like, but you'd think 18yrs of technology would improve that as well.

But they didn't do that..instead made just another M car that is just like all the others. It is great, but not anything I'd buy, and totally contrary to why I've always liked BMW.

So Porsche now has my attention.
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Last edited by cozmo kraemer; Thu, Oct-11-2018 at 08:20:06 PM.
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Old Thu, Oct-11-2018, 08:38:14 PM   #182
mcfreid
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

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Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
In terms of interior back seat passenger space, the F10 M5 has less than the e60s has less than the e39. I (6'4) can't begin to sit behind myself in the F10 M5. I can do so comfortably in the e39. e39 is smaller than the F80 M3
Yeah this to me is the most shocking paradox when it comes to the increase in car sizes. Older cars are far more roomier! My best guess is safety. Personally it makes sitting in new cars for long trips, even with my small stature, far less enjoyable.
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Old Thu, Oct-11-2018, 08:43:36 PM   #183
Steve M3
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

As usual, every car EXCEPT the E46 M3 is total garbage
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Old Thu, Oct-11-2018, 08:55:58 PM   #184
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

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Originally Posted by mcfreid View Post
Yeah this to me is the most shocking paradox when it comes to the increase in car sizes. Older cars are far more roomier! My best guess is safety. Personally it makes sitting in new cars for long trips, even with my small stature, far less enjoyable.
There's a real reason why sizes are increasing; its not just to compete in a certain segment. It's actually a common misconception that cars are getting bigger just to get more sales.

I was educated by my buddy that works at OEMs with the following:

- Tougher safety standards. They increase all the tech surrounding the interiors.
- Lower fuel economy and emissions targets for larger cars. Larger car = less stringent.

Read more here: https://jalopnik.com/the-surprising-...ger-1785292229
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Old Thu, Oct-11-2018, 09:00:06 PM   #185
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

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Originally Posted by Steve M3 View Post
As usual, every car EXCEPT the E46 M3 is total garbage
I would hope the e46 M3 is the best car for the wants of people on an e46 M3 forum. If not, they bought the wrong car
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Old Thu, Oct-11-2018, 09:05:14 PM   #186
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

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Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
I would hope the e46 M3 is the best car for the wants of people on an e46 M3 forum. If not, they bought the wrong car
I love the E46, as most do on this site, but some of the statements that are made in these types of threads are just ridiculous.
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Old Thu, Oct-11-2018, 09:36:33 PM   #187
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

Quote:
Originally Posted by cozmo kraemer View Post
I think BMW could have kept the E46M formula and made modern cars from that. It wouldn't have to be the fastest car they made, but offer the most feedback and driving experience. That is why I was so disappointed with the M2. Here I thought they were going to put E46M type characteristics into a modern chassis/package, and they basically just built a smaller M4...
Not to beat a dead horse, but I just don't see what you're saying. The new M cars do exactly what the old M cars do, just at different levels and in different ways.

M-car characteristics in no particular order:

- good steering (a tradeoff here has happened)
- powerful brakes with good feel/bite
- rigid, balanced chassis
- tight, responsive suspension
- amazing, stable, benign handling
- killer power plant (a tradeoff here has happened)
- aggressive, stylish looks
- high overall build quality
- nice interior
- thrilling driving experience
- track-able with little modification
- everyday usability
- relatively refined road manners
- excellent outward visibility
- natural seating position
- visceral but well mannered nature
- FUN to drive really hard and fast
- affordable-ish

Aside from a couple of tradeoffs, the recipe is alive and healthy the way I see it. And considering the chassis/handling/suspension is likely FAR superior in the M2, it sounds like you're prioritizing steering feel and NA power (the tradeoffs) above everything else even though the other key ingredients have improved significantly?

In other words, do the big improvements in chassis/suspension/handling not outweigh the tradeoffs? You'd rather have a killer NA motor and better steering feel than "blow your mind" handling and power?
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Last edited by EricSMG; Thu, Oct-11-2018 at 09:55:33 PM.
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Old Thu, Oct-11-2018, 09:53:17 PM   #188
Obioban
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricSMG View Post
Not to beat a dead horse, but I just don't see what you're saying. The new M cars do exactly what the old M cars do, just at different levels and in different ways.

M-car characteristics in no particular order:

- good steering (a tradeoff here has happened)
- powerful brakes with good feel/bite
- rigid, balanced chassis
- tight, responsive suspension
- amazing, stable, benign handling
- killer power plant (a tradeoff here has happened)
- aggressive, stylish looks
- high overall build quality
- nice interior
- thrilling driving experience
- track-able with little modification
- everyday usability
- relatively refined road manners
- excellent outward visibility
- natural seating position
- visceral but well mannered nature
- FUN to drive really hard and fast

Aside from a couple of tradeoffs, the recipe is alive and healthy the way I see it. And considering the chassis/handling/suspension is likely FAR superior in the M2, it sounds like you're prioritizing steering feel and NA power (the tradeoffs) above everything else even though the other key ingredients have improved significantly?

In other words, do the big improvements in chassis/suspension/handling not outweigh the tradeoffs? You'd rather have a killer NA motor and better steering feel than "blow your mind" handling?
Disagree. Historically the M car formula was...
high rev NA engine
nice manual trans
rwd
good handling
form follows function styling
LSD
nice interior
nice chassis

Upcoming M cars are...
turbo
automatic
awd
handling ruined by poor steering (I understand this some people don't care about this-- but it's 100% ruinous of the car for me)
gaudy styling
e-diff
nice interior
nice chassis

F8X falls somewhere in the middle.

Only the e9X and e36 have missed the nice interior boat
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Last edited by Obioban; Thu, Oct-11-2018 at 10:03:46 PM.
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Old Thu, Oct-11-2018, 09:55:14 PM   #189
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

I don't know if you're supposed to compare the new 3 series to an e46 or an e39, when looking back (since it's larger than an e39 in every dimension), but I think this picture speaks volumes to how vastly their styling priorities have changed. Pre bangle cars were very form follows function/minimalist. Post bangle cars are... quite stylized.



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Last edited by Obioban; Thu, Oct-11-2018 at 10:04:42 PM.
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Old Thu, Oct-11-2018, 10:01:23 PM   #190
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

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Originally Posted by Paulo M View Post
Every car has gotten bigger, is this the only reason? Even sports cars with only performance in mind, has gotten bigger.
It's not the only reason. A seldom discussed one is that they (the government) changed the rules about impact/crashes at some point soon after the E46 came out, and it affected the way cars were designed. The kidneys being part of the hood as in our cars became illegal/extinct. As such, we started seeing the seams where they needn't/shouldn't have been, and to strengthen the beam in front of that, the design and sizing changed a bit too.

So, as things kept evolving after this relatively simple change, what we started noticing was the shoulder height of cars getting WAY higher. (I was marveling at the difference between my convertible mirror height and an M4's recently; it's like the difference between a stanced bagged car and a stock non sport e46 Xi.) This is one of the several reasons why the old 1M was hideous, and if you'll note, to keep up with that trend, now we're seeing every car running at a minimum 17s and 20s are common now. Remember back when we first got our E46s and many tire places didn't have a machine that could mount a 19" tire? But even the 17s look tiny because the cars grew taller and bulkier.

So, naturally, just to keep proportions up, they spun it into a leg room and space and storage etc conversation... hyped the fact that every generation has another 80hp, etc...

And yeah, some of that was because hey, the average dealership-goer does demand that stuff. But it's not like people were complaining about the size of the e39, and now that car looks small next to an F80. But I think the pointless over-regulation domino that was tipped back then played a role in the bloating of cars too.

I've noticed a few recent models with hood designs like ours again, though, so I wonder if the rules changed. Maybe a new bumper rule superceded it or something.
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Discussing BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts in the E46 M3 (2001-2006) Forum - Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006. at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)