BMW M3 Forum
BMW M3 Forum BMW M3 Gallery BMW M3 Reviews BMW M3 Social Groups BMW M3 Chat M3Forum Sponsors >>
Loading


Mobile M3forum
Go Back   BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X) > BMW M3 Discussions > E36 M3 (1992-1999)
Tire Rack Buy Winter Tires Now!
Not a member? Register Now!
Register Gallery All Albums Garage Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Calendar FAQ

E36 M3 (1992-1999) {Euro - S50 B32 321hp @ 7400 rpm} {U.S. - S52 B32 240 hp @ 6000 rpm}
Total Produced: 71,212 - Years Produced: 1992 to 1999


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old Fri, Oct-07-2016, 04:23:12 PM   #31
M_Parallel
Mr. OEM
 
M_Parallel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 2,320
Reputation: 0 M_Parallel is on a distinguished road
Location: Home Court

Netherlands




Default Re: Headlights Question - Braymond get in here

Quote:
Originally Posted by StJamesM View Post
while we're on the topic - what makes Bosch better?

both options seem to portray a proper look - just curious, so i can have as much knowledge as possible
Here's the real deal:

Whether you take ZKW or Bosch H1 units, the best OEM, unmodified -emphasis on unmodified aka, you want the best OEM stock look - then take the later H7 units. Best in this context is: best light beam/highest output aka most visibility at night.

These are open parabole reflectors so subjectively don't look as cool as projector units. To each their own.

There is a reason BMW changed from H1 projectors to H7 open parabola during the E36 lifespan and I'll tell you this, not to have worse light ouput.

H1 bulbs are simply older tech. H7 is later tech.

Putting HID/xenon bulbs in E36 H1 projector units, without doing a full projector swap designed for HID's, will not give you any better output.
__________________

'98 M3 3.2 SMG Cabrio • Alpinweiß III auf Schwarz • Deutschland-ausführung
Jump to top M_Parallel is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Register now and remove these ads
Old Fri, Oct-07-2016, 07:31:11 PM   #32
nrubenstein
*******
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 36
Posts: 8,196
Reputation: 0 nrubenstein will become famous soon enough
Location: Washington, DC





Default Re: Headlights Question - Braymond get in here

Quote:
Originally Posted by M_Parallel View Post
Here's the real deal:

Whether you take ZKW or Bosch H1 units, the best OEM, unmodified -emphasis on unmodified aka, you want the best OEM stock look - then take the later H7 units. Best in this context is: best light beam/highest output aka most visibility at night.

These are open parabole reflectors so subjectively don't look as cool as projector units. To each their own.

There is a reason BMW changed from H1 projectors to H7 open parabola during the E36 lifespan and I'll tell you this, not to have worse light ouput.

H1 bulbs are simply older tech. H7 is later tech.

Putting HID/xenon bulbs in E36 H1 projector units, without doing a full projector swap designed for HID's, will not give you any better output.
Agreed. If you are committed to halogen, the H1 lights of any sort suck. I'd rather have the crappy plastic US lights with upgraded bulbs (HIR 9012/9011 fit easily, for example).
__________________
[B]2011 BMW M3 (E90) Alpinweiß/Cloth - Slicktop stripper, TCK D/A Konis, AS SSK
2006 GMC Sierra 2500HD 4WD - Duramax LBZ/Allison
2002 BMW M3 Alpinweiß/Black - Konis, AS SSK, JBL MS-62C, IDQ-12v3, JBL MS-8
1999 323i KP/GTS2 Alpinweiß - Hood-in-the-windshield mod
1995 M3 Dakargelb/Black - S50B32/S6S420G, Diffsonline 3.91, H&R/Bilstein, Hotchkis, AS SSK, etc...
1990 325is Brilliantrot/Tan - GC/Bilstein, Sway
1989 325is Alpinweiß/Black - Decontenting...
1989 M3 Alpinweiß/Black - S62B50 in progress...

Hers: 1996 Porsche 911 Turbo Black/Black - UMW LTW Flywheel, Bilstein
Hers: 1988 325iX Coupe Diamondschwartz/Black 5spd - Korman lengthened front driveshaft, 272 cam, H&R/Bilstein

Jump to top nrubenstein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Fri, Oct-07-2016, 07:52:40 PM   #33
Braymond141
Registered User
 
Braymond141's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 20,554
Reputation: 0 Braymond141 is an unknown quantity at this point
Location: Oakhurst, CA

United States




Default Re: Headlights Question - Braymond get in here

Quote:
Originally Posted by nrubenstein View Post
Agreed. If you are committed to halogen, the H1 lights of any sort suck. I'd rather have the crappy plastic US lights with upgraded bulbs (HIR 9012/9011 fit easily, for example).
He isn't talking about US lights, he's talking about Euro Bosch parabolic. Bosch projector lights do not suck (neither do fresh US lights for that matter) and they have excellent high beams. These are two categories no aftermarket Euro light can touch.
Jump to top Braymond141 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Fri, Oct-07-2016, 08:10:22 PM   #34
Braymond141
Registered User
 
Braymond141's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 20,554
Reputation: 0 Braymond141 is an unknown quantity at this point
Location: Oakhurst, CA

United States




Default Re: Headlights Question - Braymond get in here

Quote:
Originally Posted by M_Parallel View Post
You can't even grasp what I know or don't know, mr know-it-all, which you seem to be.

Ironically, nothing I said in that post is incorrect.

I even came along older post, from you, mentioning the H7 are the older units, H1 the later ones.

Talk about who knows what and where facepalms are in place.

p.s. I'm not here to entertain you. So tough luck. Lucky for me, I find your posts hilarious and looking forward to more of them.
I guess I need to spell it out for you. When you start a reply with I'm surprised you are surprised... and then continue on with information that is already known and irrelevant, you are wrong. You know who Jim is, you know his nature for perfection, stop assuming less. If the facepalm didn't get the point across, then maybe you prefer no shit Sherlock.

As far as the order of operations for E36 lighting... so what? If I have made a mistake it wasn't without effort. When you constantly see H7 based Euro lights on eBay that have scorched low beam bowls and H1 projector based that have significantly less issues... it isn't unreasonable to come to such conclusion. Over the 11 years of ownership, the only light that people want to talk about are projector based. I have never once refuted your reply to this. Move on...

I would genuinely be interested in some manual mode photos taken of FRESH parabolic H7 versus FRESH projector based H1. The test must be done with equal bulbs with similar lumen ratings and category of bulb. H7 is rated for a higher legally mandated output over H1 so for all things to be fair, they must match. An observation of beam pattern and impact on oncoming traffic would also be appreciated.

Last edited by Braymond141; Fri, Oct-07-2016 at 08:22:36 PM.
Jump to top Braymond141 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Fri, Oct-07-2016, 08:44:17 PM   #35
nrubenstein
*******
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 36
Posts: 8,196
Reputation: 0 nrubenstein will become famous soon enough
Location: Washington, DC





Default Re: Headlights Question - Braymond get in here

Quote:
Originally Posted by Braymond141 View Post
He isn't talking about US lights, he's talking about Euro Bosch parabolic. Bosch projector lights do not suck (neither do fresh US lights for that matter) and they have excellent high beams. These are two categories no aftermarket Euro light can touch.
I am fully aware that he was talking about the H7 Bosch reflectors. My point was that if I had to stay halogen, I'd take ANYTHING but either H1 fixture. (And I actually have a couple of Bosches sitting on a shelf.)
__________________
[B]2011 BMW M3 (E90) Alpinweiß/Cloth - Slicktop stripper, TCK D/A Konis, AS SSK
2006 GMC Sierra 2500HD 4WD - Duramax LBZ/Allison
2002 BMW M3 Alpinweiß/Black - Konis, AS SSK, JBL MS-62C, IDQ-12v3, JBL MS-8
1999 323i KP/GTS2 Alpinweiß - Hood-in-the-windshield mod
1995 M3 Dakargelb/Black - S50B32/S6S420G, Diffsonline 3.91, H&R/Bilstein, Hotchkis, AS SSK, etc...
1990 325is Brilliantrot/Tan - GC/Bilstein, Sway
1989 325is Alpinweiß/Black - Decontenting...
1989 M3 Alpinweiß/Black - S62B50 in progress...

Hers: 1996 Porsche 911 Turbo Black/Black - UMW LTW Flywheel, Bilstein
Hers: 1988 325iX Coupe Diamondschwartz/Black 5spd - Korman lengthened front driveshaft, 272 cam, H&R/Bilstein

Jump to top nrubenstein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Fri, Oct-07-2016, 09:00:07 PM   #36
Braymond141
Registered User
 
Braymond141's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 20,554
Reputation: 0 Braymond141 is an unknown quantity at this point
Location: Oakhurst, CA

United States




Default Re: Headlights Question - Braymond get in here

Quote:
Originally Posted by nrubenstein View Post
I am fully aware that he was talking about the H7 Bosch reflectors. My point was that if I had to stay halogen, I'd take ANYTHING but either H1 fixture. (And I actually have a couple of Bosches sitting on a shelf.)
Little odd on the US preference over H1 Bosch, but I understand.
Jump to top Braymond141 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Fri, Oct-07-2016, 10:50:42 PM   #37
JitteryJoe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 744
In the garage:
Reputation: 0 JitteryJoe is on a distinguished road
Location: Seattle

United States




Default Re: Headlights Question - Braymond get in here

<sigh>
All I want to know is what headlight to buy. Ideally I don't want to have to do a bunch of modifications in order for them to look and work great. Sorry, don't mean to highjack the thread but I've read so many posts on headlights and all I end up is more confused.
Ok, soldier on.
Thanks,
--Joe
__________________
My Techno Violet E36 M3 Journal
Jump to top JitteryJoe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Fri, Oct-07-2016, 11:08:56 PM   #38
Jim E.
Registered User
 
Jim E.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 528
Reputation: 0 Jim E. is on a distinguished road





Default Re: Headlights Question - Braymond get in here

Quote:
Originally Posted by M_Parallel View Post
Here's the real deal:

Whether you take ZKW or Bosch H1 units, the best OEM, unmodified -emphasis on unmodified aka, you want the best OEM stock look - then take the later H7 units. Best in this context is: best light beam/highest output aka most visibility at night.

These are open parabole reflectors so subjectively don't look as cool as projector units. To each their own.

There is a reason BMW changed from H1 projectors to H7 open parabola during the E36 lifespan and I'll tell you this, not to have worse light ouput.

H1 bulbs are simply older tech. H7 is later tech.

Putting HID/xenon bulbs in E36 H1 projector units, without doing a full projector swap designed for HID's, will not give you any better output.
This is the last thing I want to do on a Friday afternoon but your post is not accurate. Putting aside that the majority of your posts lean more towards confrontation rather than cooperation, let’s review your thesis.

“H1 bulbs are simply older tech. H7 is later tech.”

The only way that statement is true is if you literally mean that the H1 bulb came out first. So yes the H1 was introduced around the early 60’s and the H7 came out later. However, they are essentially the same tungsten halogen technology. Both are single filament designs but in different lengths. Why are they different lengths? Because they are used in different housings and as such, produce different light patterns in their respective housings. In our case, the H1 and H7 are used in PES (Poly-Ellipsoid System) and parabolic housing respectively.

So it isn’t that one is “better” than the other since they both produce the same type of light. At the end of the day what counts when comparing these bulbs is the lumens output if you want to compare apples to apples. I already corrected you in a past post but it appears that the information I typed went in one eye and out the other. Perhaps it’s worth repeating – the lumen output of the H1 is 1550 and the H7 1500 at 12V. Essentially the same.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_flux

The difference therefore is in the housing designs. When manufacturers design headlights, they don’t simply look at maximum output. There are many variables: headlamp range, geometric range, visual range, disability glare, discomfort glare, electrical load etc…. Whether we are talking free form, PES, faceted reflectors, multifocal etc…, the headlamp efficiency of these are in the 50% range. If memory serves me, PES is just above 50% and free form is just below. Once again, not a huge difference. It should be noted that the light pattern requirements in the US differ from the EU in one important way. The minimum glare levels are higher in the US and the maximum low-beam width is closer to the car. Parabolics lend themselves to that requirement quite nicely.

There are advantage/disadvantages to both designs but one thing is not disputed, PES have better light control. They create a sharper cutoff and can be aimed higher than reflectors because there’s no appreciable stray light above the cutoff. They also have greater range in the direction of travel. Another PES advantage is the ability to easily change from RHD to LHD by simply turning the reflector housing to get the opposite pattern. Ever wonder why subsequent models use a PES system for HID’s? This is why optional HID lights on the E46 etc… are of the PES design.

So if someone I would be kind enough to give me the physics of how an h7 has “better” light output than an H1 I am more than willing to learn - in a non-confrontational way.

https://www.hella.co.nz/en/technolog...ed-technology/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headlamp
__________________
http://www.pbase.com/dandoun/image/164706869/medium.jpg
Jump to top Jim E. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sat, Oct-08-2016, 12:45:58 AM   #39
Braymond141
Registered User
 
Braymond141's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 20,554
Reputation: 0 Braymond141 is an unknown quantity at this point
Location: Oakhurst, CA

United States




Default Re: Headlights Question - Braymond get in here

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim E. View Post
This is the last thing I want to do on a Friday afternoon but your post is not accurate. Putting aside that the majority of your posts lean more towards confrontation rather than cooperation, let’s review your thesis.

“H1 bulbs are simply older tech. H7 is later tech.”

The only way that statement is true is if you literally mean that the H1 bulb came out first. So yes the H1 was introduced around the early 60’s and the H7 came out later. However, they are essentially the same tungsten halogen technology. Both are single filament designs but in different lengths. Why are they different lengths? Because they are used in different housings and as such, produce different light patterns in their respective housings. In our case, the H1 and H7 are used in PES (Poly-Ellipsoid System) and parabolic housing respectively.

So it isn’t that one is “better” than the other since they both produce the same type of light. At the end of the day what counts when comparing these bulbs is the lumens output if you want to compare apples to apples. I already corrected you in a past post but it appears that the information I typed went in one eye and out the other. Perhaps it’s worth repeating – the lumen output of the H1 is 1550 and the H7 1500 at 12V. Essentially the same.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_flux

The difference therefore is in the housing designs. When manufacturers design headlights, they don’t simply look at maximum output. There are many variables: headlamp range, geometric range, visual range, disability glare, discomfort glare, electrical load etc…. Whether we are talking free form, PES, faceted reflectors, multifocal etc…, the headlamp efficiency of these are in the 50% range. If memory serves me, PES is just above 50% and free form is just below. Once again, not a huge difference. It should be noted that the light pattern requirements in the US differ from the EU in one important way. The minimum glare levels are higher in the US and the maximum low-beam width is closer to the car. Parabolics lend themselves to that requirement quite nicely.

There are advantage/disadvantages to both designs but one thing is not disputed, PES have better light control. They create a sharper cutoff and can be aimed higher than reflectors because there’s no appreciable stray light above the cutoff. They also have greater range in the direction of travel. Another PES advantage is the ability to easily change from RHD to LHD by simply turning the reflector housing to get the opposite pattern. Ever wonder why subsequent models use a PES system for HID’s? This is why optional HID lights on the E46 etc… are of the PES design.

So if someone I would be kind enough to give me the physics of how an h7 has “better” light output than an H1 I am more than willing to learn - in a non-confrontational way.

https://www.hella.co.nz/en/technolog...ed-technology/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headlamp
Great information. I saw the 1550 H1 versus 1500 H7 reference too but also saw H1 rated at 1410 in the US. Most of us are going to run higher output bulbs anyway (Night Breakers here).
Jump to top Braymond141 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sat, Oct-08-2016, 01:23:31 AM   #40
westopher
Registered User
 
westopher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,017
Reputation: 0 westopher is on a distinguished road
Location: Vancouver

Canada




Default Re: Headlights Question - Braymond get in here

Quote:
Originally Posted by JitteryJoe View Post
<sigh>
All I want to know is what headlight to buy. Ideally I don't want to have to do a bunch of modifications in order for them to look and work great. Sorry, don't mean to highjack the thread but I've read so many posts on headlights and all I end up is more confused.
Ok, soldier on.
Thanks,
--Joe
You can buy already retrofitted zkw lights from umnitza.
Only non modification easy route if you want to run HIDs
If you want just better halogens, any euro unit will give you that.

That's the best way I can simplify things.
__________________

98 m3, techno/anthrazit cloth, 106k and officially worthless. 2000 323i touring, silver/grey/sport pack, 170k and officially boring.
Member journal. http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=491859
Jump to top westopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 01:53:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
M3Forum.com and M3forum.net is in no way sponsored, endorsed or affiliated by or with BMW NA / BMW AG or any of it's subsidiaries or vendors.
BMW and M3 (E90 M3 | E92 M3 | E93 M3 | E46 M3 | E36 M3 | E30 M3) are registered trademarks of BMW AG.
M3Forum Terms of Service
Copyright ©1999-2017 M3Forum.com
Discussing Headlights Question - Braymond get in here in the E36 M3 (1992-1999) Forum - {Euro - S50 B32 321hp @ 7400 rpm} {U.S. - S52 B32 240 hp @ 6000 rpm}
Total Produced: 71,212 - Years Produced: 1992 to 1999 at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)