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Old Fri, May-19-2017, 04:50:11 PM   #12811
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Default Re: F80/F82/F83 M3/M4 thread

Still heard about it with e92s and if the motor goes pop in your brand new $80k M4 chances are anyone with a bimmerpost account is going to say something.
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Old Fri, May-19-2017, 05:03:50 PM   #12812
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Default Re: F80/F82/F83 M3/M4 thread

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Still heard about it with e92s and if the motor goes pop in your brand new $80k M4 chances are anyone with a bimmerpost account is going to say something.
searching the e9X M section of M3post for "rod bearings", the first thread I see mentioning it is from 2012:
http://www.m3post.com/forums/search....0&pp=30&page=9

4 years after the 4 year warranty car came out.
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Old Fri, May-19-2017, 05:36:21 PM   #12813
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Default Re: F80/F82/F83 M3/M4 thread

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Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
searching the e9X M section of M3post for "rod bearings", the first thread I see mentioning it is from 2012:
http://www.m3post.com/forums/search....0&pp=30&page=9

4 years after the 4 year warranty car came out.
Didn't I say 2011-2012 timeframe???

It takes time to accrue the mileage to cause failures. The e9x failures weren't immediate early on, hardly any cars on the lead bearings were going before 30-40k miles. It takes 3-4 years to get the bulk of the cars up to that mileage where you start seeing failures. Lets not forget we're still talking about a failure rate of <5% (I've heard 1-2% but who knows).

I also think you're underestimating the bitchiness of BMW buyers if you think they aren't going to complain about catastrophic engine failures in their brand new $75k cars that leave them in the shop for 2-6 weeks at a time.

If the crank hub spinning ends up being the F80's Achilles heel then so be it. I just said at the present time, 3 years in, the F80 is proving quite reliable if left stock.

FYI from Bimmerpost:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maltman View Post
Sorry, now i got time

BMW saw this issue first time on an engine test bed long time before the first vehicle was delivered. The same issue is known from a 4 cyl engine - same parts/system.

The real problem is not the hub (2) or the wheels (5). It´s the bolt (3), which holds the wheel and crank hub. The bolt dissolves because of vibrations coming from the vibration damper (1) in front of it - or from any other imbalanced source. If it dissolves, your chain wheel spins and timings adjusts.

So why not just tighten the bolt, or make the hub and wheels from one piece? Because this system works like a fuse. This "fuse" protects your crankshaft against imbalanced parts and vibrations. If you fix the bolt (weld etc), it can't come loose and you risk damages to your crankshaft and bearings etc. The "solutions" some tuners offer are very dangerous, BMW constructed everything for a reason. Example? You can't (or its very difficult) set timings with a fixed wheel. We spoke honestly with the engineer, about solutions, whats possible. The reality is: there´s no solution. You can fix the bolt but you open a range of new risks. You can install a one piece hub/wheel - and of this the engineer urgently advised against - you risk even more damages.

JoeFromPA is right - there are over 40k vehicles and just round about 40 (BMW said this) known cases, most of them with only wrong timings. You even can't check the bolt, only thing you can do is change the bolt every year or every xxxxx miles/km. The bolt is tightened with 200 Nm and 2x 260 degrees







still have about 100 more photos, can post some of them if needed.
No way to know if that's true or not but current failure rate of 0.1%... I'll take my chances.
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Old Fri, May-19-2017, 05:49:18 PM   #12814
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Default Re: F80/F82/F83 M3/M4 thread

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Didn't I say 2011-2012 timeframe???
Well, that's when warranty ends, so.... Correlates with my theory :P

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serious View Post
It takes time to accrue the mileage to cause failures. The e9x failures weren't immediate early on, hardly any cars on the lead bearings were going before 30-40k miles. It takes 3-4 years to get the bulk of the cars up to that mileage where you start seeing failures. Lets not forget we're still talking about a failure rate of <5% (I've heard 1-2% but who knows).
I don't think that's accurate-- multiple failures in the <20,000 mile range on the s65.

The s65 bearings I think you have to divide into two failure categories:
1) Original assembly tolerance stack, resulting in premature failure (the lottery failure-- can occur at any mileage/usage cycle). This one is the design failure.
2) The "8400 rpm therefore bearings will wear out" failure (wear)-- this one should just be considered maintenance imo-- replace at intervals, or as UAOs dictate (assuming you have the early bearings where wear shows up in a UAO).
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Old Fri, May-19-2017, 06:01:22 PM   #12815
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Default Re: F80/F82/F83 M3/M4 thread

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Well, that's when warranty ends, so.... Correlates with my theory :P



I don't think that's accurate-- multiple failures in the <20,000 mile range on the s65.

The s65 bearings I think you have to divide into two failure categories:
1) Original assembly tolerance stack, resulting in premature failure (the lottery failure-- can occur at any mileage/usage cycle). This one is the design failure.
2) The "8400 rpm therefore bearings will wear out" failure (wear)-- this one should just be considered maintenance imo-- replace at intervals, or as UAOs dictate (assuming you have the early bearings where wear shows up in a UAO).
Most low mileage failures have been on revised 2011+ bearings.

FYI there is no proof these additional clearance bearing are any better or worse than the stock ones. Its a guy who got another guy a parts supplier (not an engineering department) to help him sell their product to a bunch of scared forum readers. He convinced people who don't know better with a bunch of "industry best practice" quotes and excel graphs of clearance measurements.

If that makes you feel warm and fuzzy then hey feel free to drop your $2500 or whatever. From my research there is no more evidence supporting it than any of the others. It's just been marketed better. Time will tell, personally I am not rushing out to change bearings. The guys at BMW know a hell of a lot more about designing engines than these guys. They may have got the coatings wrong or didn't account for some region based factor (such as ethanol content) but the core design of the reciprocating assembly they know what works.

Last edited by Serious; Fri, May-19-2017 at 06:07:42 PM.
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Old Fri, May-19-2017, 06:24:47 PM   #12816
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Default Re: F80/F82/F83 M3/M4 thread

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Originally Posted by Serious View Post
FYI there is no proof these additional clearance bearing are any better or worse than the stock ones. Its a guy who got another guy a parts supplier (not an engineering department) to help him sell their product to a bunch of scared forum readers. He convinced people who don't know better with a bunch of "industry best practice" quotes and excel graphs of clearance measurements.
For sure there can't be any "proof" until they've been out for many years in many cars. But, I don't think he's totally talking out of his ass-- he did have the s14 lead involved. And the s65/85 bearing clearances are far less than any other engine I've seen. My current take is... I find them likely to be less lottery prone than stock, but I wouldn't stake anything on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serious View Post
If that makes you feel warm and fuzzy then hey feel free to drop your $2500 or whatever. From my research there is no more evidence supporting it than any of the others. It's just been marketed better. Time will tell, personally I am not rushing out to change bearings. The guys at BMW know a hell of a lot more about designing engines than these guys. They may have got the coatings wrong or didn't account for some region based factor (such as ethanol content) but the core design of the reciprocating assembly they know what works.
Looks like the BE bearings are $589?
Or
OE bearings would be ~$325

Oil pan gasket is $35, rod bolts are $7.32 each, so $117.12 total.

... looks to me like the whole project with OE parts would be ~$475

Not that I'll be doing them, since I don't have an s65. But, seems like a far cry from $2500!
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Old Fri, May-19-2017, 06:30:45 PM   #12817
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Default Re: F80/F82/F83 M3/M4 thread

$2500 is parts & labor. If you want to pay yourself $3/hour to lay under a car for a weekend, and assuming you've already paid for all the tools then yes you could do it for under $1000 bucks.

Second guess bmws engineering all you want but remember this is the same timeframe they were running the most powerful NA engine in F1 history. 3.0l v10 making ~1000hp at 19000rpm... these people know how to spec recriprocating assembly clearances.

I know it feels good to hear clevite say oh that's not normal but the supplier isn't privy to the rest of the design. They're given a design for the part their building alone.

No one has done a true root cause, corrective action investigation into the s65 bearings. BE came up with a theory and ran with it. Maybe it will work, maybe not. Despite their confidence they have no clue but hey whatever they have a product to sell to a hungry scared customer.

Last edited by Serious; Fri, May-19-2017 at 06:41:43 PM.
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Old Fri, May-19-2017, 06:50:45 PM   #12818
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Default Re: F80/F82/F83 M3/M4 thread

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$2500 is parts & labor. If you want to pay yourself $3/hour to lay under a car for a weekend, and assuming you've already paid for all the tools then yes you could do it for under $1000 bucks.
I like to think I could finish the job in <667 hours

Rod bearings normally take an afternoon. And they're a pretty fun project! Feels like you're doing real car work. Don't know what this "lay under a car" is about, though.

The only tool needed for rod bearings that you're average person with a tool box might not have is a torque wrench that can measure in degrees. ECS has one for $100.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serious View Post
Second guess bmws engineering all you want but remember this is the same timeframe they were running the most powerful NA engine in F1 history. 3.0l v10 making ~1000hp at 19000rpm... these people know how to spec recriprocating assembly clearances.

I know it feels good to hear clevite say oh that's not normal but the supplier isn't privy to the rest of the design. They're given a design for the part their building alone.

No one has done a true root cause, corrective action investigation into the s65 bearings. They came up with a theory and ran with it. Maybe it will work, maybe not. Despite their confidence they have no clue but hey whatever they have a product to sell to a hungry scared customer.
Perhaps their attention was elsewhere (F1). Certainly that's traditionally been Ferraris pattern (good street cars or good race cars, but not both coming out at the same time)

Engineers make mistakes. Cars are incredibly complex-- the odds of nothing going amiss, particularly on high stress ones, is low. I'm not arguing the BE bearings are the solution-- I'm just saying that BMW's engineers making it doesn't mean it's correct. Something is incorrect, with the lottery based failures. One place or another, they made a mistake. And certainly the aftermarket is capable of correcting such things-- e.g. no locked down s54 vanos tabs have failed. We're many years and thousands of cars in at this point-- it's an actually proven solution.

But, yeah, it'll take a couple years and many, many cars installing these before we know if this is the solution for the s65 rod bearing problem.

.... now about the s65 main bearings problem
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Old Fri, May-19-2017, 07:14:51 PM   #12819
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Default Re: F80/F82/F83 M3/M4 thread

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Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
I like to think I could finish the job in <667 hours

Rod bearings normally take an afternoon. And they're a pretty fun project! Feels like you're doing real car work. Don't know what this "lay under a car" is about, though.

The only tool needed for rod bearings that you're average person with a tool box might not have is a torque wrench that can measure in degrees. ECS has one for $100.
An afternoon? I doubt it and yeah you're laying under the car unless you're pulling the motor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
Perhaps their attention was elsewhere (F1). Certainly that's traditionally been Ferraris pattern (good street cars or good race cars, but not both coming out at the same time)

Engineers make mistakes. Cars are incredibly complex-- the odds of nothing going amiss, particularly on high stress ones, is low. I'm not arguing the BE bearings are the solution-- I'm just saying that BMW's engineers making it doesn't mean it's correct. Something is incorrect, with the lottery based failures. One place or another, they made a mistake. And certainly the aftermarket is capable of correcting such things-- e.g. no locked down s54 vanos tabs have failed. We're many years and thousands of cars in at this point-- it's an actually proven solution.

But, yeah, it'll take a couple years and many, many cars installing these before we know if this is the solution for the s65 rod bearing problem.

.... now about the s65 main bearings problem
The s85 & S65 are reported to have their origins based on the F1 v10 (P85?).

Obviously there is a problem I am not arguing that. I am saying since no one has done a real root cause investigation I would rather put my faith in BMW's competent engineers to properly determine something as basic as reciprocating assembly clearances. I just don't believe bmw would get something as straightforward as simple clearances and tolerance stackups wrong. I tend to think its some other factor contributing to the wear but that's just my opinion.
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Old Fri, May-19-2017, 08:24:40 PM   #12820
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Default Re: F80/F82/F83 M3/M4 thread

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An afternoon? I doubt it and yeah you're laying under the car unless you're pulling the motor
I have a lift :P

And, yeah, an afternoon. Unless they're significantly harder than s54 bearings (don't look to be in DIYs), looks like a 6-7 hour project.
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Discussing F80/F82/F83 M3/M4 thread in the Off Topic Forum - Place to discuss this and that. Note: We also have "request to join" forums: Guns and Fitness.
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