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E46 M3 (2001-2006) Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006.


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Old Mon, Mar-06-2017, 06:54:11 AM   #51
0-60Motorsports
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Default Re: Ordered AKG solid subframe mounts and they emailed me back......

How about using these with OE subframe bushings:

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-powerfle...r5-4612x2~pfx/

https://www.powerflex.co.uk/road-ser...ert/11636.html

if the car has low miles on it why not just use these along with OE diff bushes and maintain the smooth ride of OE bushes (including reinforcement of course).

Also REDISH use yellow PF Subframe bushes all the time and they have had great success with them. They do not report any deformations caused by the Yellow PF SF bushes also. I do have a set of them lying around here.......But what i had decided on was TMS solids with OE diff bushes.

Vince, Looking forward to your reply since my car will be using the Vincebar in the future.
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Last edited by 0-60Motorsports; Mon, Mar-06-2017 at 07:47:21 AM.
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Old Mon, Mar-06-2017, 06:27:09 PM   #52
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Default Re: Ordered AKG solid subframe mounts and they emailed me back......

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
If you have solid subframe bushings then your diff won't flop around if it has rubber bushings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BTB View Post
... than oe probably would be perfect

It seems, then, that solid subframe bushings are likely most effective (or least problematic) when used in conjunction with proper redistribution of the load path of the rear subframe, whether in the form of the vince bar or other. It does seem like using aluminum bushings on a stock, non-reinforced car would be a bad idea...
We are experimenting with fixing a complex mechanical problem from the armchairs of our personal vehicles as test beds. It's really pretty insane.

The failure vector isn't just the up and down movement. It's also torsional. The reason I went with the solid bushing, is to make the subframe, through the Vince brace, a solid unit with the frame rails as much as possible, and stop the lower bolt portion and mount from rotating into the structure. The right front mount on my car was eye opening. The right side of the mount was indented from the rubber bushing. It's a clear indication that failure in that portion of the floor is caused by a rotating subframe.

I did some measurements and there is still up and down movement (of course). My hope is that locking down rotational forces against the frame rails will also prevent enough movement to make the vertical shock not matter.

If it still fails from up and down movement, then I guess you move on to the next phase of analysis in this car's jacked up rear end load path.

By the way, the OE bushing is not perfect in any situation on this car, because the load path itself is the problem. No one with OE bushings has escaped this petre dish.
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Old Mon, Mar-06-2017, 07:10:46 PM   #53
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Default Re: Ordered AKG solid subframe mounts and they emailed me back......

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Originally Posted by jdev View Post
We are experimenting with fixing a complex mechanical problem from the armchairs of our personal vehicles as test beds. It's really pretty insane.

The failure vector isn't just the up and down movement. It's also torsional. The reason I went with the solid bushing, is to make the subframe, through the Vince brace, a solid unit with the frame rails as much as possible, and stop the lower bolt portion and mount from rotating into the structure. The right front mount on my car was eye opening. The right side of the mount was indented from the rubber bushing. It's a clear indication that failure in that portion of the floor is caused by a rotating subframe.

I did some measurements and there is still up and down movement (of course). My hope is that locking down rotational forces against the frame rails will also prevent enough movement to make the vertical shock not matter.

If it still fails from up and down movement, then I guess you move on to the next phase of analysis in this car's jacked up rear end load path.

By the way, the OE bushing is not perfect in any situation on this car, because the load path itself is the problem. No one with OE bushings has escaped this petre dish.
Your point about going solid to reduce the torsional stress (with rotation of rear wheels?) makes complete sense especially if this is believed to be the main culprit for causing failure.

What I would like to see is a measurement of torsional stress after Vinces solution with solid vs oe bushings. Because if the difference here is negligible, then I would think a car with Vince's solution using OE bushings combined with plates could decrease the vertical forces.

If you are using a solution like vinces in conjunction with plates I would think that the larger surface area of solid bushings would not give any advantage over OE because the contact area will now be spread over the plate itself rather than where the OE bushing was contacting without the plates the way the car rolled off the assembly line. In this case you would get a slight dampening of those vertical forces by sticking with oe. Again this is assuming those differences in torsional measurements between the bushing types being negligible.
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Old Tue, Mar-28-2017, 06:14:48 PM   #54
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Default Re: Ordered AKG solid subframe mounts and they emailed me back......

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Originally Posted by VinceSE2 View Post
There are obviously pros and cons with everything, in fact everything is a compromise.

But I too have a hard time understanding why solid subframe bushings combined with OE diff bushings would be such an issue for the diff.

I understand there is less elasticity in the drivetrain that can absorb shocks, but I just don't see how that could be a deal breaker for a solid bushing, considering the benefits of the solid bushing.

I currently have poly bushings, and have been advocating polys over solids (mostly for the reasons brought up in this thread) for some time. But having spent some time looking into this in more detail I've come to a different conclusion. And will most likely (time permitting) be changing to solid subframe bushings in the near future.

But as it's late Friday night here I'll be sharing my thoughts and findings tomorrow.

I also noticed that this thread contains quite a few misunderstandings, mixups, and incorrect statements that I also intend to comment tomorrow.


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Any update on this Vince? Would like to hear your input on this as I'm in the process of getting your kit, and this info would help before I order my bushings.
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Old Tue, Mar-28-2017, 08:06:34 PM   #55
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Default Re: Ordered AKG solid subframe mounts and they emailed me back......

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Originally Posted by JonnyM View Post
Any update on this Vince? Would like to hear your input on this as I'm in the process of getting your kit, and this info would help before I order my bushings.
+1. Armchair engineering or not, this is an interesting discussion. Like the guy posting above the post I am quoting, I too would be interested in real-world measurements of stress and load distribution/force applied between the different bushing options in conjunction with plates and a VinceBar kit, if such data or experimenting exists or is feasible to conduct.

Despite the common weak points in this car, the fact that there is a community behind this platform that is constantly thinking and doing, with a shared common goal of improving these weak-points, is one of the things I have come to love most about this car. It would be hard to step away from this platform, when the community backing it up is so strong, all these years later.

Looking forward to your contributions VinceSE!
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Old Tue, Mar-28-2017, 08:56:46 PM   #56
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Default Re: Ordered AKG solid subframe mounts and they emailed me back......

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyM View Post
Any update on this Vince? Would like to hear your input on this as I'm in the process of getting your kit, and this info would help before I order my bushings.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr M3an M3 View Post
+1. Armchair engineering or not, this is an interesting discussion. Like the guy posting above the post I am quoting, I too would be interested in real-world measurements of stress and load distribution/force applied between the different bushing options in conjunction with plates and a VinceBar kit, if such data or experimenting exists or is feasible to conduct.



Despite the common weak points in this car, the fact that there is a community behind this platform that is constantly thinking and doing, with a shared common goal of improving these weak-points, is one of the things I have come to love most about this car. It would be hard to step away from this platform, when the community backing it up is so strong, all these years later.



Looking forward to your contributions VinceSE!


I'm sorry it's taking such time, but I just have too many things (and deadlines) going on right now.

I haven't abandoned this discussion, I just need some time to properly explain my point, and gather supporting pictures.




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Old Wed, Apr-05-2017, 03:34:00 PM   #57
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Default Re: Ordered AKG solid subframe mounts and they emailed me back......

If anyone decides they dont want to use their E46M aluminum AKG SF bushings, pm me. They're out and I'd like to grab a set. Probably a few weeks for next batch to come in!
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Old Fri, May-19-2017, 06:02:05 PM   #58
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Default Re: Ordered AKG solid subframe mounts and they emailed me back......

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Originally Posted by VinceSE2 View Post
I'm sorry it's taking such time, but I just have too many things (and deadlines) going on right now.

I haven't abandoned this discussion, I just need some time to properly explain my point, and gather supporting pictures.




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Old Fri, May-19-2017, 06:56:53 PM   #59
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Default Re: Ordered AKG solid subframe mounts and they emailed me back......

Akg is in stock again - mine arrived last week
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Discussing Ordered AKG solid subframe mounts and they emailed me back...... in the E46 M3 (2001-2006) Forum - Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006. at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)