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E46 M3 (2001-2006) Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006.


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Old Mon, Oct-09-2017, 05:37:13 AM   #41
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Default Re: E46 M3 with Viper V10

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Originally Posted by Rakshas View Post
Try 6500rpm, which is pretty respectable for any engine with that degree of rotating mass. You could probably push it further but why bother?

It's 400 lb-ft at the wheels at 2k rpm. 600 at the crank. If we accept your halving theory, at half the displacement it would still be putting out 300lb-ft. Aka, more than the technological marvel that is the S65 V8.

There is no award for complexity for complexities sake, all it does it add failure points. The Viper V10 is a great engine that is the result of continuous development of a solid platform. You can dislike its displacement all you want, but it produces usable, reliable, easy to fix power in a way that other engines which "push the technical and manufacturing abilities to their extreme" could only hope for.

Calling it pathetic or a disappointment just highlights your own myopia.
What he said.
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Old Mon, Oct-09-2017, 05:51:39 AM   #42
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Default Re: E46 M3 with Viper V10

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Originally Posted by m3 hal View Post
It pretty much is when it comes to evaluating the technology an engine is packing. Achieving high torque with excessive displacement is more of an approach than it is an accomplishment.
hp/l is one measurement. How about hp per lb? How about hp per $ of manufacturing cost? How about cost of maintenance per mile per hp? How about hp per volume of engine (not engine displacement, but engine package volume). Etc.

Not to over generalize, but you can expect an engine with high hp/l to be complex, expensive, physically large (e.g., quad-cam vs. pushrod), etc. The viper engine is an LA V8 engine with two additional cylinders. The engine first came out as a 273 in 1964. I'd say the viper engine is a remarkable achievement. I cannot imagine what an ass-kicker a V10 based on a GM LS engine would be.

Before fans of the S85 start laughing about the viper engine being based on a small block chrysler V8, remember that the S85 is basically a 90 degree V8 with two extra cylinders as well. If it was designed as a V10 it would have a 72 degree bank angle. BMW took advantage of existing tooling and as a result, shared a lot of design cost and probably also quite a few parts between the S65 and S85. It's a different approach, but to say it's better is a stretch.
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Old Mon, Oct-09-2017, 05:52:05 AM   #43
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Default Re: E46 M3 with Viper V10

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Originally Posted by mrgizmo04 View Post
I would not go as far as calling the engine a POC, but agree with some other comments here. American muscle mentality of my previous joke (no replacement for displacement) is not impressive and that is why I don't like "American muscle". It is a fundamentally different approach to engine building and extracting power. 8.4L tank engine (basically ) that redlines at 6500rpm...not bad. And sure it holds records, but it is built for a different purpose (road racing purpose and not a mass produced daily) and it has to be built for that purpose to stay somewhat relevant. It pushes the boundary of street legal, and the price points are like 120k+. Total production of Vipers is about 30k cars in the past 20+ years. I think even Corvettes do about that amount PER year.

It is way more impressive what BMW and Porsche can do with 3-4L engines, with the added benefits of mass production for those who choose to daily and enjoy great handling.

Personal take here, to each his/her own. I am not trying to get into an argument or a back and forth comparing this engine to that or this car to that, I'm just expressing my personal lack of interest in huge displacement.
The thing I don't get is, why? What is wrong with utilizing displacement when literally everything else about the engine (physical dimensions, reliability, cost of repair, ease of repair, etc) is better?

Unless you're subject to an arbitrary (i.e. tax based) displacement limit, there is no reason to use a smaller displacement engine with more failure modes that I can see.
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Old Mon, Oct-09-2017, 05:53:54 AM   #44
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Default Re: E46 M3 with Viper V10

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Originally Posted by bimmerdriver View Post
hp/l is one measurement. How about hp per lb? How about hp per $ of manufacturing cost? How about cost of maintenance per mile per hp? How about hp per volume of engine (not engine displacement, but engine package volume). Etc.

Not to over generalize, but you can expect an engine with high hp/l to be complex, expensive, physically large (e.g., quad-cam vs. pushrod), etc. The viper engine is an LA V8 engine with two additional cylinders. The engine first came out as a 273 in 1964. I'd say the viper engine is a remarkable achievement. I cannot imagine what an ass-kicker a V10 based on a GM LS engine would be.

Before fans of the S85 start laughing about the viper engine being based on a small block chrysler V8, remember that the S85 is basically a 90 degree V8 with two extra cylinders as well. If it was designed as a V10 it would have a 72 degree bank angle. BMW took advantage of existing tooling and as a result, shared a lot of design cost and probably also quite a few parts between the S65 and S85. It's a different approach, but to say it's better is a stretch.
The S85 is also a maintenance and reliability nightmare. It's the #1 reason i'm shopping for an M156 benz instead of an M6.
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Old Mon, Oct-09-2017, 04:35:46 PM   #45
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Default Re: E46 M3 with Viper V10

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Originally Posted by Rakshas View Post
The thing I don't get is, why? What is wrong with utilizing displacement when literally everything else about the engine (physical dimensions, reliability, cost of repair, ease of repair, etc) is better?

Unless you're subject to an arbitrary (i.e. tax based) displacement limit, there is no reason to use a smaller displacement engine with more failure modes that I can see.
Because displacement doesn't push technology or the limits of our capabilities and it doesn't progress anything or teach us anything really save for a few lessons learned. A huge motor is certainly cool but awesome technology and pushing the engine (or anything else for that matter) to it's limit gives me a different and greater appreciation for it, what's wrong with that? That's why the s85 is so great and why it breaks when you look at it wrong, it is pushing the limits to their extremes that's why I love it.
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Old Mon, Oct-09-2017, 05:09:56 PM   #46
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Default Re: E46 M3 with Viper V10

Regardless of opinions on the Viper motor in general, that particular car sounds like there is something seriously wrong with it. It sounds like it's running on 5 cylinders.

That white S85 powered car sounds absolutely glorious though.
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nah this one dude on the forum said it was all good. I'm sure he knows what he's talking about.
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Old Tue, Oct-10-2017, 04:11:25 AM   #47
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Default Re: E46 M3 with Viper V10

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Originally Posted by gearhead55 View Post
Regardless of opinions on the Viper motor in general, that particular car sounds like there is something seriously wrong with it. It sounds like it's running on 5 cylinders.

That white S85 powered car sounds absolutely glorious though.
It's also burning tons of oil. Obviously not a typical example. Vipers have been very successful on the road as well as road racing. Dissing the engines because they aren't complex, expensive, difficult to maintain and unreliable doesn't make any sense.
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Old Tue, Oct-10-2017, 12:25:18 PM   #48
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Default Re: E46 M3 with Viper V10

A viper swap in ANYTHING is cool with me.
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Old Tue, Oct-10-2017, 08:54:01 PM   #49
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Default Re: E46 M3 with Viper V10

Just going to throw my 2 cents in here because the majority of you guys are criticizing a pretty serious build while you all have a tune and a set of headers. Relax.

First off, did no one notice the engine in that car is turbo? hence the slight whistle, smoke and terrible throttle response/idle not to mention the hard piping visible through the hood...... So your "500hp" theory just went out the window with that because once its tuned correctly, its probably easily producing 1000hp. Doesn't seem so stupid now does it? I think the car is hideous and I personally would never do this swap but its amazing how quickly the critiques spread like wild fire on this forum.
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Old Tue, Oct-10-2017, 09:17:46 PM   #50
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Default Re: E46 M3 with Viper V10

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Originally Posted by TheWarHammer View Post
Just going to throw my 2 cents in here because the majority of you guys are criticizing a pretty serious build while you all have a tune and a set of headers. Relax.

First off, did no one notice the engine in that car is turbo? hence the slight whistle, smoke and terrible throttle response/idle not to mention the hard piping visible through the hood...... So your "500hp" theory just went out the window with that because once its tuned correctly, its probably easily producing 1000hp. Doesn't seem so stupid now does it? I think the car is hideous and I personally would never do this swap but its amazing how quickly the critiques spread like wild fire on this forum.
I'm just criticizing the motiérë. 8.3 liters, sounds like crap, runs like crap turbo with 1000hp. You are just proving my point....fuel on the fire
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Discussing E46 M3 with Viper V10 in the E46 M3 (2001-2006) Forum - Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006. at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)