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E46 M3 (2001-2006) Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006.


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Old Sun, Oct-08-2017, 08:11:40 PM   #31
Rakshas
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Default Re: E46 M3 with Viper V10

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Originally Posted by icecream View Post
Annndd, you're a d*ck. Im just shooting the sh*t over here a little, wtf man?




Please explain why the motor isn't. As I said before, I love the viper, but that motor is just a little sad at 60hp/l.


-Massive linear power output
-Relatively flat torque curve that starts at 400 ft-lbs at 2k rpm
-Compact OHV design that still manages to incorporate variable valve timing
-Dressed weight of around 232kg gives a 2.75hp/kg ratio. Compare this to the 217kg S54 with a 1.53hp/kg figure.
-Simple design with easy access to major components and repairs.
-Relatively unstressed in stock form, lots of room for more power or a stable reliable build at stock power level.
-No forced induction - less susceptible to heat soak.

But tell me more about hp/l.
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Old Sun, Oct-08-2017, 09:46:19 PM   #32
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Default Re: E46 M3 with Viper V10

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Originally Posted by Rakshas View Post


-Massive linear power output
-Relatively flat torque curve that starts at 400 ft-lbs at 2k rpm
-Compact OHV design that still manages to incorporate variable valve timing
-Dressed weight of around 232kg gives a 2.75hp/kg ratio. Compare this to the 217kg S54 with a 1.53hp/kg figure.
-Simple design with easy access to major components and repairs.
-Relatively unstressed in stock form, lots of room for more power or a stable reliable build at stock power level.
-No forced induction - less susceptible to heat soak.

But tell me more about hp/l.
Some valid points. Would you consider it a technical marvel in 2013? I mean, what does it redline at, 3500rpm? Does it push the technical capabilities of todays engineers and manufacturing abilities to their extreme and is it particularly efficient?
If you assume half its displacement that would theoretically be about half the power/torque. That brings your 400ft-lb figure to 200 (yeah, I realize this is not a linear relationship but just for illustration purposes). Not so impressive anymore is it for a 4.15 liter? My point is all that motor has really done is increase displacement to do what it does. IMO that is just not impressive to me, too easy.
Is it cool, sure. Fun, absolutely. But to each there own.
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Old Mon, Oct-09-2017, 01:21:56 AM   #33
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Default Re: E46 M3 with Viper V10

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Originally Posted by icecream View Post
Some valid points. Would you consider it a technical marvel in 2013? I mean, what does it redline at, 3500rpm? Does it push the technical capabilities of todays engineers and manufacturing abilities to their extreme and is it particularly efficient?
If you assume half its displacement that would theoretically be about half the power/torque. That brings your 400ft-lb figure to 200 (yeah, I realize this is not a linear relationship but just for illustration purposes). Not so impressive anymore is it for a 4.15 liter? My point is all that motor has really done is increase displacement to do what it does. IMO that is just not impressive to me, too easy.
Is it cool, sure. Fun, absolutely. But to each there own.
Efficient compared to what, the S85 V10 in the E60 M5 getting 10-12MPG on a good day?

Pushing technical capabilities? How about it being faster than everything in its era, money no object:

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Old Mon, Oct-09-2017, 01:28:08 AM   #34
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Default E46 M3 with Viper V10

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Originally Posted by TheSt|G View Post
Efficient compared to what, the S85 V10 in the E60 M5 getting 10-12MPG on a good day?



Pushing technical capabilities? How about it being faster than everything in its era, money no object:





I love the viper have respect for it, but the Nurburgring argument is flawed (for the acr). If you put the same amount of aero on any of the cars near it's class, they would smoke the vipers time. Just the facts.


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Old Mon, Oct-09-2017, 01:31:56 AM   #35
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Default Re: E46 M3 with Viper V10

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Originally Posted by buzz367 View Post
I love the viper have respect for it, but the Nurburgring argument is flawed (for the acr). If you put the same amount of aero on any of the cars near it's class, they would smoke the vipers time. Just the facts.


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I agree with that but does that de-evaluate the motor?
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Old Mon, Oct-09-2017, 01:43:55 AM   #36
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Default Re: E46 M3 with Viper V10

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Originally Posted by buzz367 View Post
I love the viper have respect for it, but the Nurburgring argument is flawed (for the acr). If you put the same amount of aero on any of the cars near it's class, they would smoke the vipers time. Just the facts.


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Yeah, cars like the LFA Nurburgring edition, GT2 RS, Gumpert Apollo, and Zonda F Clubsport are really known for minor aero.
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Old Mon, Oct-09-2017, 03:01:27 AM   #37
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Default Re: E46 M3 with Viper V10

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Originally Posted by TheSt|G View Post
Efficient compared to what, the S85 V10 in the E60 M5 getting 10-12MPG on a good day?

Pushing technical capabilities? How about it being faster than everything in its era, money no object:

I mean, that's great but fails to address my argument since I never said anything about the capabilities of the car.
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Old Mon, Oct-09-2017, 04:48:37 AM   #38
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Default Re: E46 M3 with Viper V10

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Originally Posted by icecream View Post
Some valid points. Would you consider it a technical marvel in 2013? I mean, what does it redline at, 3500rpm? Does it push the technical capabilities of todays engineers and manufacturing abilities to their extreme and is it particularly efficient?
If you assume half its displacement that would theoretically be about half the power/torque. That brings your 400ft-lb figure to 200 (yeah, I realize this is not a linear relationship but just for illustration purposes). Not so impressive anymore is it for a 4.15 liter? My point is all that motor has really done is increase displacement to do what it does. IMO that is just not impressive to me, too easy.
Is it cool, sure. Fun, absolutely. But to each there own.
Try 6500rpm, which is pretty respectable for any engine with that degree of rotating mass. You could probably push it further but why bother?

It's 400 lb-ft at the wheels at 2k rpm. 600 at the crank. If we accept your halving theory, at half the displacement it would still be putting out 300lb-ft. Aka, more than the technological marvel that is the S65 V8.

There is no award for complexity for complexities sake, all it does it add failure points. The Viper V10 is a great engine that is the result of continuous development of a solid platform. You can dislike its displacement all you want, but it produces usable, reliable, easy to fix power in a way that other engines which "push the technical and manufacturing abilities to their extreme" could only hope for.

Calling it pathetic or a disappointment just highlights your own myopia.
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Old Mon, Oct-09-2017, 05:13:54 AM   #39
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Default Re: E46 M3 with Viper V10

I would not go as far as calling the engine a POC, but agree with some other comments here. American muscle mentality of my previous joke (no replacement for displacement) is not impressive and that is why I don't like "American muscle". It is a fundamentally different approach to engine building and extracting power. 8.4L tank engine (basically ) that redlines at 6500rpm...not bad. And sure it holds records, but it is built for a different purpose (road racing purpose and not a mass produced daily) and it has to be built for that purpose to stay somewhat relevant. It pushes the boundary of street legal, and the price points are like 120k+. Total production of Vipers is about 30k cars in the past 20+ years. I think even Corvettes do about that amount PER year.

It is way more impressive what BMW and Porsche can do with 3-4L engines, with the added benefits of mass production for those who choose to daily and enjoy great handling.

Personal take here, to each his/her own. I am not trying to get into an argument or a back and forth comparing this engine to that or this car to that, I'm just expressing my personal lack of interest in huge displacement.
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Old Mon, Oct-09-2017, 05:35:37 AM   #40
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Default Re: E46 M3 with Viper V10

The thing with motors like this is they have bucket loads of torque and are reliable. HP/L isn't always the only thing that matters.
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Discussing E46 M3 with Viper V10 in the E46 M3 (2001-2006) Forum - Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006. at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)