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E46 M3 (2001-2006) Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006.


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Old Fri, Jul-14-2017, 09:23:46 PM   #21
TboneM3
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Default Re: Just had inspection service, no valves needed to be re-shimmed, is this normal or

Quote:
Originally Posted by Braymond141 View Post
Tune your motor however you want
I'm tuning it to within spec, so I don't know why you're getting all worked up.


Quote:
again tight is for torque, loose is for horsepower."
Again, I'd love to see the science/math/reasoning behind this.


Lastly, this car already has plenty of horsepower. And it's always easier to get more than it is to get more torque, so if that adage about "tight for tq and loose for hp" is actually true, I don't understand why tight, within spec, would be a bad thing?

You realize, as well, we're talking about a hundredth or two of millimeters or a few thousandths of an inch - that variance in HP or TQ is going to be immeasurable within the BMW spec range of .18-.23 and .28-.33
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DD/Beater: 1999 Civic LX - Kenwood x998 PPI 1600.4 CDT HD-6 + HD-100 CDT EX-530 Clarion 10"

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Old Fri, Jul-14-2017, 09:33:53 PM   #22
TboneM3
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Default Re: Just had inspection service, no valves needed to be re-shimmed, is this normal or

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Originally Posted by EricSMG View Post
However! Given that the shims come in increments that are 4/5ths the total allowable tolerance range, it is extremely easy to go too tight and lose performance. Therefore, I keep things loose and only adjust if way too loose.
I agree Eric, sometimes you just gotta leave it alone. But I often find that I have a shim that will get me a little tighter in the spec range (I have a good mic).

Supposedly, the shims don't wear, the other parts of the cam lob to valve mechanism does, but when I mic various shims, I get 2.27s and 2.31s etc that aren't made that way. When I mic a brand new 2.28, the mic reads 2.28.

Maybe I'm being misunderstood by Brett or others- I'm not going outside of the range. I'm finding that a valve has a tolerance of let's say .32 and I'm trying to get it closer to .28. I could leave it alone because it's within the .33 spec, but if I have a new or used shim that's 2 or 3 hundredths thicker, I'll throw it in and land at .29-30. Also understand that this is fun for me, a hobby. Doing that extra "work" is not work for me. Others may think I'm crazy for "wasting" my time adjusting it.
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-TMS Camber & Subf plates RE Street Trans Mounts AKG poly SUB/DIFF SDW RTAB ZHP knob + UUC DSSR GroundControl S/A (Koni/Eibach 440/550) + tall RSMs
-BMW Motorsport 4.10 OE CSL trunk APEX 75mm Studs Sportline 8S 18x8.5/9.5" PSS 245/275 ss brake/clutch lines
-Pioneer DEH-80PRS Eclipse PA5422 CDT HD-6 + WS-100i CDT EX-530 8" Kicker

DD/Beater: 1999 Civic LX - Kenwood x998 PPI 1600.4 CDT HD-6 + HD-100 CDT EX-530 Clarion 10"

Last edited by TboneM3; Sun, Jul-16-2017 at 04:35:11 PM.
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Old Fri, Jul-14-2017, 09:52:19 PM   #23
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Default Re: Just had inspection service, no valves needed to be re-shimmed, is this normal or

You are absolutely misunderstanding everything that is being said Tbone. Nobody is getting worked up and nobody was accusing anyone of doing anything wrong.

What Ian quoted from the OP is exactly how you describe the function of a feeler gauge. It's literally in the name of the tool. There is no other way to use the tool.

As far as power from valve lash adjustments I encourage you to look up the pros and cons. This has been discussed for decades. However minute you think these these changes are they are there. It would be advisable to put some effort into researching it before sharing your opinions. I realize I'm not offering much more than the gist of it, but it has already been discussed. I'm not going outside of the range either as I already stated in the first reply; "within the given clearance spec".
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Old Fri, Jul-14-2017, 09:57:23 PM   #24
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Default Re: Just had inspection service, no valves needed to be re-shimmed, is this normal or

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Originally Posted by Braymond141 View Post
You are absolutely misunderstanding everything that is being said Tbone. Nobody is getting worked up and nobody was accusing anyone of doing anything wrong.
Everything that you're saying or everything that others are saying? - can you please clarify. I find it impossible that I'd be "misunderstanding absolutely everything." Or was that an exaggeration?

The reason I said "worked up" was because one isn't really adjusting the top end how they want if they're staying within spec - they're doing it the way BMW wants, so I found your statement odd and interpreted it as you being upset that I questioned your "tight is for tq/loose is for hp" claim.


Quote:
What Ian quoted from the OP is exactly how you describe the function of a feeler gauge. It's literally in the name of the tool. There is no other way to use the tool.
There is another way to use a feeler gauge, incorrectly, whereby one choose a single feeler, let's say .178mm, and only uses that to gauge whether the tolerance is in spec or not. If the tolerance is actually at .22, that feeler is going to be loose, but without going up a size in feelers, the tech won't know if the tolerance is so loose that it's out of spec.

That's how I first read what OP said the tech told him and I suspected that's how Ian took it. Like I already said, the tech probably knows how to adjust valves and it's no biggie.

Quote:
As far as power from valve lash adjustments I encourage you to look up the pros and cons. This has been discussed for decades. However minute you think these these changes are they are there. It would be advisable to put some effort into researching it before sharing your opinions.
It would be advisable for you to simply share your knowledge of why slight (1-4 hundredths of a mm) changes in valve tolerance would result in a measurable amount of hp vs tq gain/loss.

It sounds to me like you don't actually understand or remember and instead are simply telling me to "go look it up." You're the one that claimed it, you should back it up. I'm not going to try to prove that there don't exist bright orange elephants in the Arctic - you'd have to prove it.
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/// 2004 SilberGrau M3 Coupe 6MT slicktop manual seats no nav______________________JOURNAL

-Evolve-R alpha N Evolve CSL CF Airbox eVenturi Scoop Euro Headers|sect 1 Besian D/A pullies/fan delete WPC rod bearings
-TMS Camber & Subf plates RE Street Trans Mounts AKG poly SUB/DIFF SDW RTAB ZHP knob + UUC DSSR GroundControl S/A (Koni/Eibach 440/550) + tall RSMs
-BMW Motorsport 4.10 OE CSL trunk APEX 75mm Studs Sportline 8S 18x8.5/9.5" PSS 245/275 ss brake/clutch lines
-Pioneer DEH-80PRS Eclipse PA5422 CDT HD-6 + WS-100i CDT EX-530 8" Kicker

DD/Beater: 1999 Civic LX - Kenwood x998 PPI 1600.4 CDT HD-6 + HD-100 CDT EX-530 Clarion 10"

Last edited by TboneM3; Sun, Jul-16-2017 at 04:36:29 PM.
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Old Fri, Jul-14-2017, 10:01:22 PM   #25
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Default Re: Just had inspection service, no valves needed to be re-shimmed, is this normal or

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Originally Posted by TboneM3 View Post
It would be advisable for you to simply share your knowledge of why slight (tenths of a mm) changes in valve tolerance would result in a measurable amount of hp vs tq gain/loss.

It sounds to me like you don't actually understand or remember and instead are simply telling me to "go look it up." You're the one that claimed it, you should back it up. I'm not going to try to prove that there don't exist bright orange elephants in the Arctic - you'd have to prove it.
Go look it up. Just because I lack the eloquence to thoroughly describe every facet of the topic does not mean it isn't true. The only reason you are replying in the manner that you are is because of who you are replying to. I'm willing to bet you have a reply in a past topic already discussing this.
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Old Fri, Jul-14-2017, 10:06:55 PM   #26
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Default Re: Just had inspection service, no valves needed to be re-shimmed, is this normal or

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showp...5&postcount=20

If it makes you feel better, for awhile there I had valve lash power goals backwards.
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Old Fri, Jul-14-2017, 10:18:40 PM   #27
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Default Re: Just had inspection service, no valves needed to be re-shimmed, is this normal or

I believe the tight vs. loose information stems from old V8 engine builders and hinged on their ability to change out rocker arms for more favorable ratios. This would be used in a case where they are restricted to a certain camshaft, so they will "adjust" the cam profile by increasing the ratio on the rocker arms and pushing their valve lash to as close to the minimum spec to increase lift and duration.

That being said I'd be surprised if the effect is quite as dramatic with these engines as 800hp 555ci V8s which didn't benefit from things like variable valve timing or sophisticated engine management monitoring combustion.
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Old Fri, Jul-14-2017, 10:22:11 PM   #28
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Default Re: Just had inspection service, no valves needed to be re-shimmed, is this normal or

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I believe the tight vs. loose information stems from old V8 engine builders and hinged on their ability to change out rocker arms for more favorable ratios. This would be used in a case where they are restricted to a certain camshaft, so they will "adjust" the cam profile by increasing the ratio on the rocker arms and pushing their valve lash to as close to the minimum spec to increase lift and duration.

That being said I'd be surprised if the effect is quite as dramatic with these engines as 800hp 555ci V8s.
It's used on any motor of any size. The majority of these searched topics show up on motorcycle forums where solid lifter engines are used.
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Old Fri, Jul-14-2017, 10:29:18 PM   #29
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Default Re: Just had inspection service, no valves needed to be re-shimmed, is this normal or

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It's used on any motor of any size. The majority of these searched topics show up on motorcycle forums where solid lifter engines are used.
Most motorcycle engines aren't using variable valve timing though. I think that's the technology that really makes the practice unnecessary.
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Old Fri, Jul-14-2017, 10:31:19 PM   #30
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Default Re: Just had inspection service, no valves needed to be re-shimmed, is this normal or

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Originally Posted by Braymond141 View Post
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showp...5&postcount=20

If it makes you feel better, for awhile there I had valve lash power goals backwards.
Did you actually read that thread lol?

Might wanna choose another thread Brett.

Also, I don't like what you said about me responding the way I did because it's coming from you. The only bias I have is that I expect more from you because you know more about these cars than most and are a great DIYer. I don't have any other bias than that about you.
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-Evolve-R alpha N Evolve CSL CF Airbox eVenturi Scoop Euro Headers|sect 1 Besian D/A pullies/fan delete WPC rod bearings
-TMS Camber & Subf plates RE Street Trans Mounts AKG poly SUB/DIFF SDW RTAB ZHP knob + UUC DSSR GroundControl S/A (Koni/Eibach 440/550) + tall RSMs
-BMW Motorsport 4.10 OE CSL trunk APEX 75mm Studs Sportline 8S 18x8.5/9.5" PSS 245/275 ss brake/clutch lines
-Pioneer DEH-80PRS Eclipse PA5422 CDT HD-6 + WS-100i CDT EX-530 8" Kicker

DD/Beater: 1999 Civic LX - Kenwood x998 PPI 1600.4 CDT HD-6 + HD-100 CDT EX-530 Clarion 10"

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Discussing Just had inspection service, no valves needed to be re-shimmed, is this normal or OK? in the E46 M3 (2001-2006) Forum - Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006. at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)