BMW M3 Forum
BMW M3 Forum BMW M3 Gallery BMW M3 Reviews BMW M3 Social Groups BMW M3 Chat M3Forum Sponsors >>
Loading


Mobile M3forum
Go Back   BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X) > BMW M3 Discussions > E46 M3 (2001-2006)
Tire Rack Buy Winter Tires Now!
Not a member? Register Now!
Register Gallery All Albums Garage Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Calendar FAQ

E46 M3 (2001-2006) Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old Sat, Oct-13-2018, 12:51:48 PM   #261
BTB
Registered User
 
BTB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,049
In the garage:
Reputation: 0 BTB is on a distinguished road
Location: Orange County, California

United States




Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr M3an M3 View Post
46M 'Sport' button suffers this too. I am convinced that button isn't meant for low speeds or gradual rolling starts. It's meant for when you are on track at high-rpm, if anything. starting from a stop-light, if you hit any bumps...bucking bronco like you don't know how to drive a manual...even with SMG.

It’s the optional ‘burn-the-sh*t-out-of-the-clutch’ button for those times when you just have too much change in your pocket lol.

I don’t find the e9X power button bad at all though, I always turn it on in my dad’s car (6mt zcp)
__________________
UIUC / TU Munich Mechanical Engineering 2018
2003 ///M3 6MT Coupe Imola Red/Black Napa, slicktop, manual seats
My Journal
Jump to top BTB is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Register now and remove these ads
Old Sat, Oct-13-2018, 01:34:10 PM   #262
terraphantm
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,289
In the garage:
Reputation: 11 terraphantm is on a distinguished road
Location: Philadelphia

United States




Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr M3an M3 View Post
46M 'Sport' button suffers this too. I am convinced that button isn't meant for low speeds or gradual rolling starts. It's meant for when you are on track at high-rpm, if anything. starting from a stop-light, if you hit any bumps...bucking bronco like you don't know how to drive a manual...even with SMG.
P0lar’s throttle curve actually makes it usable IMO.

Despite popular belief the sport button does a little bit more than just alter the throttle curve. It also changes how quickly the torque is “allowed” to increase, basically making the response even more instantaneous
Jump to top terraphantm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sat, Oct-13-2018, 01:48:28 PM   #263
nasieg
Registered User
 
nasieg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,882
In the garage:
Reputation: 0 nasieg is on a distinguished road

United States




Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr M3an M3 View Post
Totally agree. F80 ZCP to put miles on and a GT3 for the special weekend car. Personally, the only car that I feel would be a natural step-up from my car would be a GT3/4. They continue the recipe that I have come to love so much, but in a modern, much improved, package.
This sums it up perfectly. The F80 M3 would make a perfect DD, one that puts a smile on your face every day, and you could even take it to the track from time to time. But it is no replacement for an e46 M3, it's like getting an modern e39 in addition to an e46 M3. The only natural step up (as you said) is a GT3/4 and I have really come to that conclusion now.

So since I am itching to get something new, I really have two choices. Either replace my DD Mk6 GTI with a n F80 M3 and keep the e46 M3 as a toy, or sell the e46 m3 for a P GT car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr M3an M3 View Post
46M 'Sport' button suffers this too. I am convinced that button isn't meant for low speeds or gradual rolling starts. It's meant for when you are on track at high-rpm, if anything. starting from a stop-light, if you hit any bumps...bucking bronco like you don't know how to drive a manual...even with SMG.
In all the years I have driven my e46 M3's, I have had it in sport + about 98% of the time. The other 2% where when I forgot to push the button. One of the best mods is to the sport button memory on your tune. It stays on your last setting. No more pushing it every time you get in.
__________________



My Journal

Besian VANOS, Euro Headers & Section1, TTFS tune, TMS under-dive pulleys, TC Kline S/A Coil Overs, Brembo 996 Calipers, ECS 2 Piece Rotors, Sportline CS8's, SG CSL Diffuser, OEM CSL Trunk
Jump to top nasieg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sat, Oct-13-2018, 02:26:34 PM   #264
EricSMG
40 something
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,074
Reputation: 0 EricSMG is on a distinguished road
Location: San Diego

United States




Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

Quote:
Originally Posted by nasieg View Post
This sums it up perfectly. The F80 M3 would make a perfect DD, one that puts a smile on your face every day, and you could even take it to the track from time to time. But it is no replacement for an e46 M3, it's like getting an modern e39 in addition to an e46 M3. The only natural step up (as you said) is a GT3/4 and I have really come to that conclusion now.

So since I am itching to get something new, I really have two choices. Either replace my DD Mk6 GTI with a n F80 M3 and keep the e46 M3 as a toy, or sell the e46 m3 for a P GT car..
That's reasonable. Think of the F80Z like an an E46 with solid bushings everywhere, really good coilovers, almost limitless front grip and a super powerful S62 that weighs not much more overall but is quite a bit bigger and you are getting close. You need some seat time you may be shocked.

Now, if you must stay NA, then why not a used 'Stang as I noted on the previous page if you just want a modern, badass fun car and don't need refinement or practicality? You can mod the fukk out of those things and not feel like you're jacking up a nice car. They are huge and heavy, yes, but have really rigid and wide platforms, sound amazing, have lots of grip, handle well and go like stink. The standard Coyote V8 is PLENTY of motor, trust me - it isn't super torquey down low but man does it scream up top. And I think it sounds better than the Voodoo. And it doesn't blow up like the Voodoo.

Or if you want something lightweight but off the hook, C5Z all day err day, cheap too. But if you're open to turbo but want something smaller then M2C is calling you.
__________________

Current - 2017 F82 M4 ZCP DCT Blk/Blk Fully Loaded
Current - 2004 E46 M3 6MT SG/Black
Sold - 2018 F80 M3 ZCP 6MT AW/Black Cloth "stripper"

Last edited by EricSMG; Sat, Oct-13-2018 at 02:54:30 PM.
Jump to top EricSMG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sat, Oct-13-2018, 02:45:31 PM   #265
EricSMG
40 something
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,074
Reputation: 0 EricSMG is on a distinguished road
Location: San Diego

United States




Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr M3an M3 View Post
46M 'Sport' button suffers this too. I am convinced that button isn't meant for low speeds or gradual rolling starts. It's meant for when you are on track at high-rpm, if anything. starting from a stop-light, if you hit any bumps...bucking bronco like you don't know how to drive a manual...even with SMG.
Yep, it's especially "buck-ish" in SMG cars as the computer gets confused with the clutch grab point.

Side note - like you, I still do and always will LOVE the SMG cars. The DCT is amazing but in fact lacks that mechanical, raw character that the SMG has. I think it makes the 46M feel like a race car. And I don't car what any 6MT fanboy says, a manual is far less effective in the twisty bits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BTB View Post
I don’t find the e9X power button bad at all though, I always turn it on in my dad’s car (6mt zcp)
Yep, I would agree that it's much more palatable in the E9XM. But I still think it creates a massive dead zone (flat spot) from about 50% to 80% throttle. The S65 has a very weak midrange such that it only responds to a certain amount of throttle and the Sport button puts all of that response in the very first mill of travel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nasieg View Post
In all the years I have driven my e46 M3's, I have had it in sport + about 98% of the time. The other 2% where when I forgot to push the button. One of the best mods is to the sport button memory on your tune. It stays on your last setting. No more pushing it every time you get in.
My very first 46M (SMG/headers/tune/4.10s) I too drove it exclusively in Sport. The car was explosive and extremely fun.
__________________

Current - 2017 F82 M4 ZCP DCT Blk/Blk Fully Loaded
Current - 2004 E46 M3 6MT SG/Black
Sold - 2018 F80 M3 ZCP 6MT AW/Black Cloth "stripper"
Jump to top EricSMG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sat, Oct-13-2018, 03:08:34 PM   #266
nasieg
Registered User
 
nasieg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,882
In the garage:
Reputation: 0 nasieg is on a distinguished road

United States




Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricSMG View Post
That's reasonable. Think of the F80Z like an an E46 with solid bushings everywhere, really good coilovers, almost limitless front grip and a super powerful S62 that weighs not much more overall but is quite a bit bigger and you are getting close. You need some seat time you may be shocked.

Now, if you must stay NA, then why not a used 'Stang as I noted on the previous page if you just want a modern, badass fun car and don't need refinement or practicality? You can mod the fukk out of those things and not feel like you're jacking up a nice car. They are huge and heavy, yes, but have really rigid and wide platforms, sound amazing, have lots of grip, handle well and go like stink. The standard Coyote V8 is PLENTY of motor, trust me - it isn't super torquey down low but man does it scream up top. And I think it sounds better than the Voodoo. And it doesn't blow up like the Voodoo.

But if you're open to turbo but want something smaller then M2C is calling you.

I think you are right, I need some seat time in a F80. I think what deters me, when I go over it in my head, is the size of it, and the fact that I don't need/want half the conveniences it offers, at least not for a car that is mostly a garage/queen fun car. Seems like a waste. I prefer a simpler and smaller car, and from that perspective a M2 makes a lot more sense. While that might still be a step up from a e46 M3, it is a lot different than a GT Porsche, but also A LOT cheaper. It probably would serve as a stepping stone.

I really do like the looks of the Mustang, a lot!. I actually think it is one of the best looking cars made in the last 5 years. I started to get pretty serious about wanting a GT350, but when I briefly asked for feedback on the "Stangforum", the consensus was that it would not feel refined enough, coming from decades of BMW ownership, Many suggested the a used e92 M3 is till a better car. So eventually I kind of got over it, but a 350 R would actually be attainable at this point and might hold its value well also.



I was not aware that the voodoo engines were prone to failure.


I heard before that GT Mustang would be very capable with a few mods. I'm not sure I can go in that direction. Meaning, coming from decades of being a Bimmer guy, down to a GT Mustang. The natural progression would be Zuffenhausen, not Michigan........sorry, sounds pretentious, but it is a mental block.
__________________



My Journal

Besian VANOS, Euro Headers & Section1, TTFS tune, TMS under-dive pulleys, TC Kline S/A Coil Overs, Brembo 996 Calipers, ECS 2 Piece Rotors, Sportline CS8's, SG CSL Diffuser, OEM CSL Trunk
Jump to top nasieg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sat, Oct-13-2018, 03:26:47 PM   #267
EricSMG
40 something
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,074
Reputation: 0 EricSMG is on a distinguished road
Location: San Diego

United States




Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

Quote:
Originally Posted by nasieg View Post
I think you are right, I need some seat time in a F80. I think what deters me, when I go over it in my head, is the size of it, and the fact that I don't need/want half the conveniences it offers, at least not for a car that is mostly a garage/queen fun car. Seems like a waste. I prefer a simpler and smaller car, and from that perspective a M2 makes a lot more sense. While that might still be a step up from a e46 M3, it is a lot different than a GT Porsche, but also A LOT cheaper. It probably would serve as a stepping stone.

I really do like the looks of the Mustang, a lot!. I actually think it is one of the best looking cars made in the last 5 years. I started to get pretty serious about wanting a GT350, but when I briefly asked for feedback on the "Stangforum", the consensus was that it would not feel refined enough, coming from decades of BMW ownership, Many suggested the a used e92 M3 is till a better car. So eventually I kind of got over it, but a 350 R would actually be attainable at this point and might hold its value well also.



I was not aware that the voodoo engines were prone to failure.


I heard before that GT Mustang would be very capable with a few mods. I'm not sure I can go in that direction. Meaning, coming from decades of being a Bimmer guy, down to a GT Mustang. The natural progression would be Zuffenhausen, not Michigan........sorry, sounds pretentious, but it is a mental block.
Great post and I completely understand, and can relate to, each point you made.

First, a car like the F80 would be a total waste as a weekend/toy/garage queen. That's not its purpose in life - it's a do it all car. Plus, as I've noted, why would you spend that much money on a weekend/toy/garage queen? Maybe you're extremely comfortable financially and if so more power to ya, so let's put that aside.

Next, while the M2C is smaller (not lighter) I'm not sure it's necessarily that much simpler, is it? All new cars comes with tons of shit guys like us don't want, standard. Cameras, NAV, PDC, blah blah blah. I hate it, too, but it's becoming the norm so let's put that aside as well. Yes, the NAV screen in the F80 is super annoying but guess what? When I'm out flogging the car it never crosses my mind.

Finally, the Mustang - it is nowhere near as put together or refined or expertly calibrated as a BMW M3.... not even in the same ballpark. BUT - for a weekend car that's almost exactly what you want, no? That said, they are very stout platforms that are rough around the edges... which almost adds to their character. Competent they most certainly are, though, with TONS of potential. And as you say.... and I totally agree... the current Mustang when trimmed right is a stunningly good looking vehicle. By far my biggest issue with that chassis is the awkward driving position/outward visibility - they feel HUGE (like full size pickup huge, seriously) because you can't get a sense of where the outer extremities are. However, very fun and sexy and badass cars indeed. And truthfully, as blasphemous as this may sounds, I think it's much more fun than the E9XM. Same weight but with a vastly more exciting motor and more or less similar handling capabilities. Oh... extremely numb steering, though, so beware. But killer brakes, killer shifter, killer chassis, killer looks, KILLER motor, killer sound, killer price Right now if I had to choose between a GTPP and an E9XM I'd most likely go for the GTPP assuming it wasn't going to me my DD.

Edit - all that crud aside, I've had some clarity as of late and now with a taste of serious (but tractable) power, my mind says that a 46M with solid bushings/coils/brakes AND an intercooled SC would be the ticket for a non DD. The car doesn't need more power but it would be a hell of a lot more fun/exciting if it did. I guess what I'm saying is that in today's world, power is really the main thing holding the 46M back.
__________________

Current - 2017 F82 M4 ZCP DCT Blk/Blk Fully Loaded
Current - 2004 E46 M3 6MT SG/Black
Sold - 2018 F80 M3 ZCP 6MT AW/Black Cloth "stripper"

Last edited by EricSMG; Sat, Oct-13-2018 at 03:40:34 PM.
Jump to top EricSMG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sat, Oct-13-2018, 03:36:44 PM   #268
gearhead55
Registered User
 
gearhead55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 469
Reputation: 0 gearhead55 is on a distinguished road

United States




Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

Quote:
Originally Posted by terraphantm View Post
P0lar’s throttle curve actually makes it usable IMO.

Despite popular belief the sport button does a little bit more than just alter the throttle curve. It also changes how quickly the torque is “allowed” to increase, basically making the response even more instantaneous
IS THIS TRUE?? This is the first time I have heard this, do you have a source for this info?

I never use the sport button because I feel like I am better able to modulate the throttle with it off, and I thought it only adjusted throttle position for a given pedal travel...


also to contribute to this thread; yea F80 would be a cool dd, but I'm not selling the E46 to replace with anything short of an Exige or GTx P-car.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serious View Post
nah this one dude on the forum said it was all good. I'm sure he knows what he's talking about.
Jump to top gearhead55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sat, Oct-13-2018, 03:39:31 PM   #269
nasieg
Registered User
 
nasieg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,882
In the garage:
Reputation: 0 nasieg is on a distinguished road

United States




Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricSMG View Post
Great post and I completely understand, and can relate to, each point you made.

First, a car like the F80 would be a total waste as a weekend/toy/garage queen. That's not its purpose in life - it's a do it all car. Plus, as I've noted, why would you spend that much money on a weekend/toy/garage queen? Maybe you're extremely comfortable financially and if so more power to ya, so let's put that aside.

Next, while the M2C is smaller (not lighter) I'm not sure it's necessarily that much simpler, is it? All new cars comes with tons of shit guys like us don't want, standard. Cameras, NAV, PDC, blah blah blah. I hate it, too, but it's becoming the norm so let's put that aside as well.

Finally, the Mustang - it is nowhere near as put together or refined or expertly calibrated as a BMW M3.... not even in the same ballpark. BUT - for a weekend car that's almost exactly what you want, no? That said, they are very stout platforms that are rough around the edges... which almost adds to their character. Competent they most certainly are, though, which TONS of potential. And as you say.... and I totally agree... the current Mustang when trimmed right is a stunningly good looking vehicle. By far my biggest issue with that chassis is the awkward driving position/outward visibility - they feel HUGE (like full size pickup huge, seriously) because you can't get a sense of where the outer extremities are. However, very fun and sexy and badass cars indeed. And truthfully, as blasphemous as this may sounds, I think it's much more fun than the E9XM. Same weight but with a vastly more exciting motor and more or less similar handling capabilities. Oh... extremely numb steering, though, so beware. But killer brakes, killer shifter, killer chassis, killer looks, KILLER motor, killer sound, killer price Right now if I had to choose between a GTPP and an E9XM I'd most likely go for the GTPP assuming it wasn't going to me my DD.

Throughout this thread you keep delivering good input and food for thought. Thanks for that!

The Mustang sure would check a lot of boxes, that is for sure. There is a guy that I see frequently at a private track event, and he owns a GT3 RS and a GT350, and he does like the GT350 a lot, despite owning arguably the best track car there is. So that is saying a lot.
From what you wrote, the positives far outweigh the negatives, although those aren't easy to overcome, heavy, numb steering and poor visibility. I'm surprised about the steering, because R&T suggested a while back that it has "the sort of steering BMW used to offer".

BTW, if I were to go M2, I probably would go for a used 17 or marked down 18. The M2C doesn't excite me as much as I hoped for. I think I mentioned that in this thread already. Yes the engine, but the weight, ugly wheels, poor sound and muffler hanging out below the bumper are turn offs. I would need to address all those things, and that puts me really close to GT4 territory. Regular M2 would be a much better value.


On SC e46 M3. Power wise I am all for it, weight up front wise not so much. Want to retain the balance. What would be better is a hybrid battery for boost.......ok I'm just kidding, but imagine you could have all the weight in the back for another 100-150 hp. Would make this car perfect. Just so that on the straights you could keep up with those newer cars.
__________________



My Journal

Besian VANOS, Euro Headers & Section1, TTFS tune, TMS under-dive pulleys, TC Kline S/A Coil Overs, Brembo 996 Calipers, ECS 2 Piece Rotors, Sportline CS8's, SG CSL Diffuser, OEM CSL Trunk

Last edited by nasieg; Sat, Oct-13-2018 at 03:44:04 PM.
Jump to top nasieg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sat, Oct-13-2018, 03:51:07 PM   #270
EricSMG
40 something
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,074
Reputation: 0 EricSMG is on a distinguished road
Location: San Diego

United States




Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

Quote:
Originally Posted by nasieg View Post
Throughout this thread you keep delivering good input and food for thought. Thanks for that!

The Mustang sure would check a lot of boxes, that is for sure. There is a guy that I see frequently at a private track event, and he owns a GT3 RS and a GT350, and he does like the GT350 a lot, despite owning arguably the best track car there is. So that is saying a lot.
From what you wrote, the positives far outweigh the negatives, although those aren't easy to overcome, heavy, numb steering and poor visibility. I'm surprised about the steering, because R&T suggested a while back that it has "the sort of steering BMW used to offer".

BTW, if I were to go M2, I probably would go for a used 17 or marked down 18. The M2C doesn't excite me as much as I hoped for. I think I mentioned that in this thread already. Yes the engine, but the weight, ugly wheels, poor sound and muffler hanging out below the bumper are turn offs. I would need to address all those things, and that puts me really close to GT4 territory. Regular M2 would be a much better value.


On SC e46 M3. Power wise I am all for it, weight up front wise not so much. Want to retain the balance. What would be better is a hybrid battery for boost.......ok I'm just kidding, but imagine you could have all the weight in the back for another 100-150 hp. Would make this car perfect. Just so that on the straights you could keep up with those newer cars.
The GTPP steering is hopelessly numb and the weight is all wrong (Obioban and I disagree on weight - I think it's HUGELY important to get the right feel). Part of the problem is the shitty steering wheel. The 350 probably feels a bit better BUT I've read that it suffers from tram-lining due to such wide front wheels/tires. But I would be shocked if the 350/R actually has "good" steering.... I'm betting okay at best (could be wrong).... Ford just doesn't operate at that level of detail. But again, so what if it's not that great? It's about the package.

For the record, on steering, the E9XM has a very funky progressive weighting system. The feedback is excellent but the variable weight algorithm in that car is very awkward and so the overall steering 'package' is actually kind of a let down for me. It's very direct since solid joint (good), excellent feedback since hydro (good), way too fast of a ratio (bad) and funky weight (bad). For reference, compare that to the F80Z: very direct (good), meh feedback since electric (bad), perfect ratio (good) and perfect variable weighting system (good). The 46M is not very direct (bad), excellent feedback (good) perfect ratio (good) and perfect weight (good). The F80 and 46M have better steering packages than the E9XM, but arrive at things differently.

Regular M2 is probably a great option - you just don't get the pimp daddy S55 motor.
__________________

Current - 2017 F82 M4 ZCP DCT Blk/Blk Fully Loaded
Current - 2004 E46 M3 6MT SG/Black
Sold - 2018 F80 M3 ZCP 6MT AW/Black Cloth "stripper"

Last edited by EricSMG; Sat, Oct-13-2018 at 04:06:12 PM.
Jump to top EricSMG is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 01:58:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
M3Forum.com and M3forum.net is in no way sponsored, endorsed or affiliated by or with BMW NA / BMW AG or any of it's subsidiaries or vendors.
BMW and M3 (E90 M3 | E92 M3 | E93 M3 | E46 M3 | E36 M3 | E30 M3) are registered trademarks of BMW AG.
M3Forum Terms of Service
Copyright ©1999-2017 M3Forum.com
Discussing BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts in the E46 M3 (2001-2006) Forum - Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006. at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)