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E46 M3 (2001-2006) Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006.


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Old Thu, Nov-03-2016, 03:34:42 PM   #251
ChipperM3
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Default Re: Failed DIS vanos test, need help translating

Hey guys,
I've been reading everything I could find regarding 288/280 cam timing issues, as I've been struggling with this same issue all summer. This sounds almost exactly what I've been dealing with. I figured it was time to chime in.
I have 288/280 Schrick cams installed and running full CSL conversion. All installed by me(throughout realizing that issues may be of my own doing). After the install and some remote tuning I did a Vanos test: intake cam was at around -8.0 degrees, exhaust was -1.0. I thought I had timed it incorrectly, so I did it again, and again, and again. After getting really fast retiming with the same result; pin drops in, -8.0 degrees on the intake cam, I moved on to other potential reasons for the timing issue.
I talked to my tuner to confirm offsets are correct for the cams. Supposedly they are, but don't the numbers, and don't know how to check myself.
I pulled the Vanos to check hub/spline insertion and can confirm that in my case the the "sweet spot" made no difference; same result using sweet spot method, or first available spline. Vanos test basically the same.
After discussions with my tuner saying the offsets are definitely correct, confirming timing(many, many times over), and checking the Vanos, I was still always on, or about -8.0 degrees on the intake. If everything is correct than my next thought was that maybe the cam timing hole was off a bit, so I advanced the intake cam past where the pin drops and locked it down. Vanos test is now -1.0 intake and -0.9 exhaust. The car runs good but the idle is hunting really bad now. My tuner tried a few things but it didn't help.
So this is where I'm at: Vanos test looks great with 288/280 offsets on CSL clone DME , but I've had to advance the intake cam to get there.
I'd sure like to get this figured out properly.
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Old Thu, Nov-03-2016, 06:01:35 PM   #252
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Default Re: Failed DIS vanos test, need help translating

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChipperM3 View Post
Hey guys,
I've been reading everything I could find regarding 288/280 cam timing issues, as I've been struggling with this same issue all summer. This sounds almost exactly what I've been dealing with. I figured it was time to chime in.
I have 288/280 Schrick cams installed and running full CSL conversion. All installed by me(throughout realizing that issues may be of my own doing). After the install and some remote tuning I did a Vanos test: intake cam was at around -8.0 degrees, exhaust was -1.0. I thought I had timed it incorrectly, so I did it again, and again, and again. After getting really fast retiming with the same result; pin drops in, -8.0 degrees on the intake cam, I moved on to other potential reasons for the timing issue.
I talked to my tuner to confirm offsets are correct for the cams. Supposedly they are, but don't the numbers, and don't know how to check myself.
I pulled the Vanos to check hub/spline insertion and can confirm that in my case the the "sweet spot" made no difference; same result using sweet spot method, or first available spline. Vanos test basically the same.
After discussions with my tuner saying the offsets are definitely correct, confirming timing(many, many times over), and checking the Vanos, I was still always on, or about -8.0 degrees on the intake. If everything is correct than my next thought was that maybe the cam timing hole was off a bit, so I advanced the intake cam past where the pin drops and locked it down. Vanos test is now -1.0 intake and -0.9 exhaust. The car runs good but the idle is hunting really bad now. My tuner tried a few things but it didn't help.
So this is where I'm at: Vanos test looks great with 288/280 offsets on CSL clone DME , but I've had to advance the intake cam to get there.
I'd sure like to get this figured out properly.
Chipper,

Thanks for chiming in on your experience. This confirms my own findings - intake camshaft ends up being over-retarded (close to adaptation limit) using the calculated offset of 2deg. Interestingly, your adaptation values were about bang on the same as mine when I timed it the first time round. Do you know what offset values were specified in the DME?

If you are planning on re-timing it back with the timing bridge, simply setting a negative value for inlet offset in the DME will correct the adaptation issue. So if your offset is currently set as 2deg and resulting in -8deg adaptation, set the offset to -6deg to bring it to zero, or whatever value keeps it in line with the exhaust adaptation value.

As already mentioned, the extra inlet advance you'll be adding with the negative offset will take you closer to optimal in terms of performance (at least if running stock CSL Inlet Vanos). If you've had the Vanos inlet map tuned at your previous offset, it will have to be adjusted to compensate.
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Old Thu, Nov-03-2016, 06:44:07 PM   #253
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Default Re: Failed DIS vanos test, need help translating

I'm not sure what the offsets are set at now, and i don't know how to check. I haven't done any DME tuning on my own yet; I'm just getting comfortable with NCS.
I'd like to set it back to normal now that it looks like you are figuring this out. I've got some learning to do.
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Old Thu, Nov-03-2016, 09:18:27 PM   #254
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Default Re: Failed DIS vanos test, need help translating



So here's I am back at it again....just to verify my timing......and sure as crap.....it's all right.

My question is at this point how much lift is considered acceptable on the timing bridge ?

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Old Thu, Nov-03-2016, 09:49:16 PM   #255
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Default Re: Failed DIS vanos test, need help translating

Frank's response:

Your offsets are set to the correct specs, however if you want me to set them somewhere else then let me know where you want them. As he said below if you set them with a minus 4 then you may fall within the tolerance of passing however you would be moving the cams 4 degrees advance to obtain that which would beg the question why would shreck grind a cam that doesn't fit the us specs or the csl specs. Either way there are 1000's of these cams out there and only a couple of people are having issues. Maybe the screwed up the grinding of the cams, I don't know. I do know this though you can get them to 0 adaptation with the computer offset, however as the chain stretches the cams will continue to move and the adaptations will come into play on going.
In short 0 today won't be there forever, hence why the made the adaptations. You tell me where you want me to set the offsets and I will set them

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Old Thu, Nov-03-2016, 09:50:09 PM   #256
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Default Re: Failed DIS vanos test, need help translating

So my thinking with this is that the timing marks on some of the cams are slightly off positioned..............only real explanation 😑😑😑

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Old Thu, Nov-03-2016, 11:12:07 PM   #257
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Default Re: Failed DIS vanos test, need help translating

I am surprised bridge slides into exhaust cam at TDC after car has been operated. IIRC vanos positions the cam in the slightly retarded position to make it easier to start. Did you have to rotate the cam with wrench? If not may point to vanos issue. That is cams are timed correctly but vanos for some reason cannot do its job.


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Old Fri, Nov-04-2016, 08:55:48 AM   #258
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Default Re: Failed DIS vanos test, need help translating

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberlando View Post
So my thinking with this is that the timing marks on some of the cams are slightly off positioned..............only real explanation 😑😑😑

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You could be right - it did cross my mind that perhaps mine hadn't been machined correctly. Given yourself and Chipper also appear to have similar issues, then it would suggest perhaps a complete batch is affected. If this is the case, either the pin holes aren't correctly centred, or the slot where the cam position pickup wheel locates isn't in the right position. I'm kind of leaning towards the pin hole being out, as mine runs better with the negative offset, bringing adaptation to zero.

If you go by calculation based on Schrick spec sheet, the offsets should be 2deg inlet, 2deg exhaust. As posted by Sli (which I believe to be correct);

Quote:
Originally Posted by SliM3 View Post
The offsets are different between OEM and Schrick cams.

Code:
Schrick 288:
0415 E1 880-00
11.6mm Lift
132-72 VANOS spread (stock CSL: 133-73)
Offset should be set to "2"  (stock CSL: "3")
Code:
Schrick 280:
0415 A1 800-00
11.6mm Lift
130-85 VANOS spread (stock CSL: 126-81)
Offset should be set to "2"  (stock CSL: "-2")
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderMoose View Post
I am surprised bridge slides into exhaust cam at TDC after car has been operated. IIRC vanos positions the cam in the slightly retarded position to make it easier to start. Did you have to rotate the cam with wrench? If not may point to vanos issue. That is cams are timed correctly but vanos for some reason cannot do its job.
Yes - exhaust cam sits in fully advanced position at idle. Inlet fully retarded. The cams have to both be fully retarded at TDC to check timing using the bridge. I'm sure Cyber has done this, otherwise it would be a full 45deg out, and he would have some major running issues.
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Old Fri, Nov-04-2016, 10:17:56 AM   #259
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Default Re: Failed DIS vanos test, need help translating

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderMoose View Post
I am surprised bridge slides into exhaust cam at TDC after car has been operated. IIRC vanos positions the cam in the slightly retarded position to make it easier to start. Did you have to rotate the cam with wrench? If not may point to vanos issue. That is cams are timed correctly but vanos for some reason cannot do its job.


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Yes I did rotate the cams counterclockwise to the fully retard position to allow for the bridge to be used. Currently retiming it again.....so everything is free at the moment

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Old Fri, Nov-04-2016, 11:27:24 AM   #260
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Default Re: Failed DIS vanos test, need help translating

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberlando View Post


So here's I am back at it again....just to verify my timing......and sure as crap.....it's all right.

My question is at this point how much lift is considered acceptable on the timing bridge ?

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1 mm, per BMW.

But I always go for no gap-- bridge on the deck, pin drops in.
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Discussing Failed DIS vanos test, need help translating in the E46 M3 (2001-2006) Forum - Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006. at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)