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E46 M3 (2001-2006) Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006.


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Old Thu, Oct-27-2016, 03:39:01 PM   #211
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Default Re: Failed DIS vanos test, need help translating

Quote:
Originally Posted by SliM3 View Post
Let me pose this question:

When you guys are installing the VANOS unit/spline shafts into the hubs to pre-load the system, how far do you set the unit to head distance before tightening the adjacent bolts on both hubs?

The plastic stand-off blocks that come with the install kits are supposed to set the correct distance between the unit and head, which will compress the Bellville washers (diaphragm springs) to the required pre-load.

If the distance between the unit and head are shorter than the plastic blocks, you stand the chance of not applying the correct pre-load. What will happen during actuation (especially during advance) is the splined shafts will push on the hub, as it tries to rotate the cam, but a potion of that travel would be used to compress the springs. In turn this would add millisecs to VANOS timing before actual cam actuation.

Maybe try increasing the distance between the unit and head during pre-load and see if that will help with timing. Also, tighten the adjacent hub bolts just to a point where the cams try to turn as you screw-in the VANOS unit.
This crossed my mine early on when I still suspected my timing. I spaced mine out about the distance that the dowels stick out from the head since I didn't have the spacers. I could definitely see this causing certain people problems if not done right but not sure thats whats going on here. Adding to response times makes sense but would that also cause drastic drops in vanos oil pressure and massive loss in performance?
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Old Thu, Oct-27-2016, 03:59:51 PM   #212
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Default Re: Failed DIS vanos test, need help translating

That vanos delete is looking more and more appealing seriosuly though, someone else get the reducer valve. Dafoe,any eta on that dyno? Car still feels good?
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Old Thu, Oct-27-2016, 05:45:24 PM   #213
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Default Re: Failed DIS vanos test, need help translating

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This crossed my mine early on when I still suspected my timing. I spaced mine out about the distance that the dowels stick out from the head since I didn't have the spacers. I could definitely see this causing certain people problems if not done right but not sure thats whats going on here. Adding to response times makes sense but would that also cause drastic drops in vanos oil pressure and massive loss in performance?
I don't think you'd necessarily see a "drastic" drop in pressure per se, but if anything, maybe a short spike due to the non-linear change in load.

Performance wise, I can see some of the issues people have described here before: hesitation, less than desirable power numbers, etc. Essentially, if the system isn't pre-loaded correctly the cams will lag behind the intended adjustment target, probably increasing in conjunction with engine speed. Almost like a dual mass flywheel during acceleration.
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Old Thu, Oct-27-2016, 07:31:21 PM   #214
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Default Re: Failed DIS vanos test, need help translating

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Originally Posted by SliM3 View Post
I don't think you'd necessarily see a "drastic" drop in pressure per se, but if anything, maybe a short spike due to the non-linear change in load.

Performance wise, I can see some of the issues people have described here before: hesitation, less than desirable power numbers, etc. Essentially, if the system isn't pre-loaded correctly the cams will lag behind the intended adjustment target, probably increasing in conjunction with engine speed. Almost like a dual mass flywheel during acceleration.
So to fix this is there a route we can take without having to mechanically time the engine all the way over again? Since all it is could be the tightening of the diaphragm Springs

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Old Fri, Oct-28-2016, 03:54:40 PM   #215
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Default Re: Failed DIS vanos test, need help translating

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Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
How thick are the included spacer blocks?
I was off with my guesstimate

They are 0.25" thick. So I'd say anywhere between 1/4" to 3/8" is a good range to set the VANOS unit for preload.

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Originally Posted by cyberlando View Post
So to fix this is there a route we can take without having to mechanically time the engine all the way over again? Since all it is could be the tightening of the diaphragm Springs

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Eh, I'm not saying this is "the" fix, but just another area to scrutinize a little more.

Really it's just the reverse of installation, and you shouldn't have to take the VANOS unit off.
  • Prerequisites for removal, i.e. relieving pressure, etc.
  • Set pistons to stop.
  • Break the torque on the hub bolts.
    [Rotate cams 180° from lead angle to loosen bottom bolts, rotate another 180°back to correct lead angle and loosen remaining bolts].
  • Pull VANOS unit forward until you reach your preload distance, then start the re-assembly process from that point.

You still need the bridge to lock the correct lead angles, and as I mentioned before in another thread, I like to leave it in place as it gives me a better visual if the cams start moving during pre-load.

Last edited by SliM3; Fri, Oct-28-2016 at 03:58:51 PM.
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Old Fri, Oct-28-2016, 04:36:51 PM   #216
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Default Re: Failed DIS vanos test, need help translating

Quote:
Originally Posted by SliM3 View Post
I was off with my guesstimate

They are 0.25" thick. So I'd say anywhere between 1/4" to 3/8" is a good range to set the VANOS unit for preload.



Eh, I'm not saying this is "the" fix, but just another area to scrutinize a little more.

Really it's just the reverse of installation, and you shouldn't have to take the VANOS unit off.
  • Prerequisites for removal, i.e. relieving pressure, etc.
  • Set pistons to stop.
  • Break the torque on the hub bolts.
    [Rotate cams 180° from lead angle to loosen bottom bolts, rotate another 180°back to correct lead angle and loosen remaining bolts].
  • Pull VANOS unit forward until you reach your preload distance, then start the re-assembly process from that point.

You still need the bridge to lock the correct lead angles, and as I mentioned before in another thread, I like to leave it in place as it gives me a better visual if the cams start moving during pre-load.
I've timed this engine soo many times and no matter how many times I read this post I can't understand what I'm actually trying to preload in the process your describing lmao maybe I'm slow 😂

Think I need pictures lmao

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Old Fri, Oct-28-2016, 04:55:45 PM   #217
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Default Failed DIS vanos test, need help translating

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Originally Posted by cyberlando View Post
I've timed this engine soo many times and no matter how many times I read this post I can't understand what I'm actually trying to preload in the process your describing lmao maybe I'm slow



Think I need pictures lmao



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So here's a real basic picture of what I'm trying to describe. The blue arrows represent the spring, and you can see how the spline hub sort slides fore and aft over the camshaft hub.



The red arrows would be the direction/pressure applied by the splined shafts to the hub when the cams are being advanced. When you pre-load you're ensuring lash-free engagement of the splines and pushing the cam up against the thrust plate.
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Last edited by SliM3; Fri, Oct-28-2016 at 09:07:08 PM.
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Old Fri, Oct-28-2016, 05:40:02 PM   #218
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Default Re: Failed DIS vanos test, need help translating

Quote:
Originally Posted by SliM3 View Post


So here's a real basic picture of what I'm trying to describe. The blue arrows represent the spring, and you can see how the spline hub sort slides fore and aft over the camshaft hub.

The red arrows would be the direction/pressure applied by the splined shafts to the hub when the cams are being advanced. When you pre-load you're ensuring lash-free engagement of the splines and locking the cam up against the thrust plate.
Freaking Winner!! That could not be illustrated any more perfect. So your saying that minute movement might be what's causing the delay? Hmmmmmm

I can see this being true if they were super loose....the vanos would essentially be canceled out by spring tension in advance movements.

Idk about others but the timing technique I used to tighten the hub wasn't really a exact torque for say since there was no room for one. The besian procedure is had the most success with was the technique when you tighten the cam hubs 3 bolts at a time then rotate the engine to get the others. And I can attest to them being super tight.

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Old Fri, Oct-28-2016, 06:10:32 PM   #219
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Default Re: Failed DIS vanos test, need help translating

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberlando View Post
Freaking Winner!! That could not be illustrated any more perfect. So your saying that minute movement might be what's causing the delay? Hmmmmmm

I can see this being true if they were super loose....the vanos would essentially be canceled out by spring tension in advance movements.

Idk about others but the timing technique I used to tighten the hub wasn't really a exact torque for say since there was no room for one. The besian procedure is had the most success with was the technique when you tighten the cam hubs 3 bolts at a time then rotate the engine to get the others. And I can attest to them being super tight.

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Well, you should only tighten two adjacent bolts on each hub when doing the pre-load. Remember, the sprockets are locked into place by the crank TDC pin, via the chain, so they're not moving.

Over tightening the bolts will try and move the cams (too much clamping force between sprockets and hubs). Too little torque and you might not be compressing the spring enough. It might be enough to take the lash out and time correctly after rotating the engine a few times, but actual operation would show deviation and higher adv. times.

Also, not everyone replaces those springs, so tension will vary. That's why I think it's a good idea to find the "sweet spot" when tightening the hub bolts; just up to the point where the cams start moving.
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Old Sat, Oct-29-2016, 04:55:05 PM   #220
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Default Re: Failed DIS vanos test, need help translating

Quote:
Originally Posted by SliM3 View Post
Well, you should only tighten two adjacent bolts on each hub when doing the pre-load. Remember, the sprockets are locked into place by the crank TDC pin, via the chain, so they're not moving.

Over tightening the bolts will try and move the cams (too much clamping force between sprockets and hubs). Too little torque and you might not be compressing the spring enough. It might be enough to take the lash out and time correctly after rotating the engine a few times, but actual operation would show deviation and higher adv. times.

Also, not everyone replaces those springs, so tension will vary. That's why I think it's a good idea to find the "sweet spot" when tightening the hub bolts; just up to the point where the cams start moving.
Well that's one approach.

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Discussing Failed DIS vanos test, need help translating in the E46 M3 (2001-2006) Forum - Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
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