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Old Fri, May-17-2019, 11:10:18 PM   #201
tenfifteen
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Default Re: Humans Suck: Shooting at UNCC

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This is an absurd reply, I clearly stated that Iím anti-death above and have made zero statement on political leanings.

You guys argue like teenagers
Anti-choice is a fundamentally right-wing, authoritarian political position. Sorry, but you donít get to have it both ways or mute it with meaningless semantic hedging.
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Old Fri, May-17-2019, 11:44:14 PM   #202
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Default Re: Humans Suck: Shooting at UNCC

Something something sanctity of life?

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Alabama executed a convicted murderer on Thursday, a day after the state enacted a near-total ban on abortions — two actions on contentious social issues that often have people across the political spectrum invoking the sanctity of human life.

“It’s a contradiction that I always observed,” said Hannah Cox, the national manager of Conservatives Concerned About the Death Penalty, an advocacy group. Approving of executions, Ms. Cox said, is “a stance that cheapens the pro-life argument.”

Ms. Cox, who is originally from Alabama and opposes both abortion and the death penalty, said that more conservatives were coming to feel the same way, offering as evidence Republican-sponsored bills to repeal the death penalty that have been introduced in 11 state legislatures.

Michael Brandon Samra was executed by lethal injection Thursday evening, according to the Alabama attorney general, Steven T. Marshall. Mr. Samra and a friend, Mark Duke, were convicted in 1997 of killing four people — Mr. Duke’s father, the father’s girlfriend and the girlfriend’s two young daughters — after a dispute over a pickup truck. Both defendants were sentenced to death, but Mr. Duke’s sentence was later overturned because he was 16 at the time of the killings; Mr. Samra was 19.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/16/u...mgpuCEZvFwQ7mg
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Old Fri, May-17-2019, 11:54:02 PM   #203
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Default Re: Humans Suck: Shooting at UNCC




Women should have control over their bodies and I should be allowed to have semiautomatic firearms.

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Old Sat, May-18-2019, 05:55:29 AM   #204
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Default Re: Humans Suck: Shooting at UNCC

Every fetus deserves the chance to die in a mass shooting. Itís a human right.
Can we just use that waste of money education budget to get everyone the gun they have the human right to? Anything less is unconstitutional.
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Old Sat, May-18-2019, 06:29:37 AM   #205
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Default Re: Humans Suck: Shooting at UNCC

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Because both are Constitutionally protected rights and it seems we can pass blatently unconstitutional laws that "protect" the unborn, but once they're in school it's thoughts and prayers.

#nationof5yearolds
Makes sense

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I don't think anybody should be forced to do anything, my only abjection is the promotion of abortion as a contraceptive. Thats it, not advocating a law or jail time, just don't encourage it and treat it as no big deal.
I think that’s a problem with the way states deliver sex/sexual health education. I’ve never looked into it, but my understating is that states that actually educate people on all of the available contraceptive options have lower teen birth rates because they actually know their options and how to avoid a pregnancy.

I went to HS in Texas in a suburban area, great school district, pretty sure the area leans conservative. I took the required health class like four or five years ago. They talked about a bunch of different STDs, but contraceptives were never discussed. Fear mongering strategy? We’re they hinting that we should just avoid sex till marriage or something (I remember in ninth grade bio, we were literally told that when going over the reproductive system)? Health education in public schools in Texas is trash.
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Old Sat, May-18-2019, 08:59:43 PM   #206
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Default Re: Humans Suck: Shooting at UNCC

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Makes sense



I think thatís a problem with the way states deliver sex/sexual health education. Iíve never looked into it, but my understating is that states that actually educate people on all of the available contraceptive options have lower teen birth rates because they actually know their options and how to avoid a pregnancy.

I went to HS in Texas in a suburban area, great school district, pretty sure the area leans conservative. I took the required health class like four or five years ago. They talked about a bunch of different STDs, but contraceptives were never discussed. Fear mongering strategy? Weíre they hinting that we should just avoid sex till marriage or something (I remember in ninth grade bio, we were literally told that when going over the reproductive system)? Health education in public schools in Texas is trash.


Yep same here in the 90ís and yes it is trash but lets be honest and admit the state has no business teaching kids about sex, that is what family is for not some 20 something fresh out of a Marxist education facility.

I find it odd how libertarian everyone is about abortion, her body her choice and all, but when it comes to literally every other aspect of life we have no say. I canít choose how to protect myself, what to eat, drink, no drugs unless they are ďapprovedĒ, what to sell, where to work, all of it is controlled by licenses/fees/laws and my choice has zero to do with it. Some lawyers shouldnít have a say over who is cutting my hair or doing my plumbing or fixing ac but yet they do and it drives the cost of everything else up. Itís nonsense how inconsistent most people are with this stuff but most people arenít reading Rothbard and Hoppe.
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Old Sat, May-18-2019, 09:05:36 PM   #207
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Default Re: Humans Suck: Shooting at UNCC

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Anti-choice is a fundamentally right-wing, authoritarian political position. Sorry, but you don’t get to have it both ways or mute it with meaningless semantic hedging.
The position he stated, not the position you're applying to him, would make him anti death penalty as well as anti abortion-- a left wing position.
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Old Sat, May-18-2019, 09:32:47 PM   #208
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Default Re: Humans Suck: Shooting at UNCC

He said he was “anti-death,” so you’re assuming that means anti-death penalty. I didn’t ascribe any position to him, just took him at his word on the issue under discussion: Abortion. We all know you adore tedium, so you can retrace the steps of the whole exchange re: “needless death” that spawned my comments if you like, but being anti-choice in combination with anti-death penalty (or in combination with any other position) is not a left-wing position. Being anti-death penalty on its own might be. The two together aren’t generally held by any group apart from Catholics.
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Old Sat, May-18-2019, 09:48:43 PM   #209
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Default Re: Humans Suck: Shooting at UNCC

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I can appreciate & understand your point of view on this. As a father, I understand the incredible sacrifices necessary to bring a human into this world. Raising my kids is easily the most challenging and most rewarding endeavor I've experienced & I would argue my wife easily bears the Lion's share of the responsibility (I'm sure many of you would say the same). My heart goes out to any woman in a position to have to make this life or death decision to abort.

I suppose where we differ is, you seem to indicate because it's extraordinarily difficult to carry & deliver, (in your words: emotionally, socially?, physically, financially & fiscally??) the woman has the right to decide to end that life rather than either have the child and raise him or her or give him or her to a loving family waiting to adopt. I should reconsider my stance, because I suppose although I agree she may have the right, I don't see it as a need. In other words, IMO it's a needless death. Similarly, she may have the right & the ability to cut off her right arm, but I would also consider this a needless loss.

I suppose we could debate at what specific point in time the "bundle of cells" is officially a human life, but I'd prefer to acquiesce & assume it isn't until after most abortions typically take place. I think we can agree, if the woman does nothing to harm those cells, eventually a human being will be born. And IMO, it is cruel and unnecessary to intervene when there are alternatives.
The woman has the right to choose what to do with the fetus/pregnancy up until the point of viability because up until that point, there is no way that medicine or society can keep that pregnancy going short of forcing her to continue a pregnancy she does not want, which will become a child she does not want. That falls within the purview of assault "The definition of assault varies by jurisdiction, but is generally defined as intentionally putting another person in reasonable apprehension of an imminent harmful or offensive contact. Physical injury is not required. " (before some jag off claims we make prisoners or others do things they don't want to do, is a woman getting pregnant a crime worthy of incarceration?) This really ends the argument - there is no moral or scientific basis for assaulting someone by denying them a safe and readily available medical procedure beyond the application of your own personal morality. And given that we live in a society which supposedly values the autonomy of the person so long as their rights do not infringe upon the rights of others, that should not fly.

Beyond that, when you say they should raise the child or give it to a loving family, I fear you are looking at things with rose colored glasses that bear no semblance to the reality of the women who are actually getting abortions. No one aborts a pregnancy that will be wanted, loved, cherished and raised the way a child should be. They abort pregnancies that will become children who aren't wanted, who won't be raised a child should be. And if you can come up with an argument for why a child should be brought into a world where they are anything less than wanted, I question your societal and moral framework. The topic of adoption has already been addressed in this thread - there are more children waiting to be adopted than our society is willing to care for already.

There is nothing cruel about abortion. A fetus which is previable has no thought process, no higher neural function, nothing which makes a person a person. A heartbeat isn't what makes us human beings - it's just something which pumps blood to organs. I've spent all month pulling organs out of braindead donors. The people they were when they had thought made a courageous decision to share what they could with others, but at the time that we're taking their kidneys, livers, tissues and lungs out - the heart is still beating. I assure you, they are dead. On the same note, I've had the special privilege of seeing a lot of terrible things (gunshot wounds, assault victims, car accidents etc). Nothing is sadder than the people we force to keep living because their heart is still beating even though they have undergone massive neurologic injury and their family refuses to let go. Heartbeats don't make you human, it's what's above your neck that does and if that functions.

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By that logic we can kill a baby until they can live without medical intervention, like vaccines or any medical procedure a baby might need.

Is lack of food a medical need? What about lack of basic care?
A child can be cared for, supported, and made to thrive by persons other than the woman that conceived them. A previable fetus cannot. Continuing that pregnancy against the woman's will is assault, as above.

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Show me where that logic fails...
See above.

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No that would infanticide, exactly what the VA governor proposed. We just take the baby and then have conversation right, hey itís cool man.


If you want to make the Walter Block eviction argument maybe but you arenít making that and I highly doubt you have read it. And hey I was once an abortion minarchist as well but once you hear a heartbeat (5 weeks) it pretty much seals the deal that itís murder.
See above.
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Old Sat, May-18-2019, 09:59:46 PM   #210
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Default Re: Humans Suck: Shooting at UNCC

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Yep same here in the 90ís and yes it is trash but lets be honest and admit the state has no business teaching kids about sex, that is what family is for not some 20 something fresh out of a Marxist education facility.

I find it odd how libertarian everyone is about abortion, her body her choice and all, but when it comes to literally every other aspect of life we have no say. I canít choose how to protect myself, what to eat, drink, no drugs unless they are ďapprovedĒ, what to sell, where to work, all of it is controlled by licenses/fees/laws and my choice has zero to do with it. Some lawyers shouldnít have a say over who is cutting my hair or doing my plumbing or fixing ac but yet they do and it drives the cost of everything else up. Itís nonsense how inconsistent most people are with this stuff but most people arenít reading Rothbard and Hoppe.
Oh god, spare us. Nothing is being forced on you, just like Teslas weren't being forced on you a few months ago. Society may dictate certain things which you cannot do due to the danger they pose to others (no you don't get fully automatic weapons just to "protect yourself"), and it may dictate that certain things cannot be furnished to the public due to the danger they pose to those who may be uneducated and preyed upon in their ignorance (you can't buy fish with mercury over a certain level or moonshine), but no one is stopping you from eating or drinking those things should you gain access to them. Licenses, fees, and laws are in place to promote the functioning of society and you absolutely have a choice - you choose to live within this society. Should you feel that chafes you so much, feel free to choose to leave to a place which does not have these measures in place.

But at no point claim that blocking access to the abortion is the same. Because I can live my entire life without the united states government or the society that we live in forcing me to be physically assaulted without me committing a crime. Once you outlaw abortion, you take that guarantee away from every female citizen.
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Discussing Humans Suck: Shooting at UNCC in the Off Topic Forum - Place to discuss this and that. Note: We also have "request to join" forums: Guns and Fitness.
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