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E46 M3 (2001-2006) Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006.


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Old Thu, Oct-11-2018, 04:37:25 AM   #121
EricSMG
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

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Originally Posted by TboneM3 View Post
Most cars are ugly. The beauty of the e46 is a big factor, to me at least.
No question. The look of a car is really important to most/all of us I would assume and that's a big part of what makes the 46M so great.

This is why I didn't get an M2 - it's ugly. But I would be my left nut that it's an absolute hoot to drive, especially the S55 powered comp pack version.

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Originally Posted by TboneM3 View Post
A huge plus is, as well, modding the older stuff. There's no aftermarket quite like the E46 M3's. Buy a new F80, then what? Do some gloss black trim wraps and stickers?
No different than here - basically suspension, wheels and power mods. The big difference is that in the motor department you can go extremely wild, and, choose from different power curve shapes just by tuning. They make super fat midrange tunes and linear tunes and everything in between. It's commonplace to add 100ftlbs in the midrange. This is of no interest to me as I want tractable power that I can use. Stock power levels are about the limit of what you can fully use, I'd say.

Guys like me who come from the NA world only have interest in the linear type curves - a moderate mid range with a good pull to redline. The stock S55 tune is quite linear, for the record. The last 1k rpm feels more or less like the last 1k rpm on a stock S54 - pretty flat. Neither is a top end screamer. For that you want an S65.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
I can see how the steering and engine don’t bother you if you don’t want to push the car to its limits. The real function/benefit of steering feel is knowing how much grip the front tires have— if you’re not approaching that limit, not a ton of benefit to steering feel.

The e36 is better for back road bombing. But, and e46 non M sport/zhp is 99% as good as the US e36M for that, and has all the e46 virtues to boot.
Again - great steering is more than just feel. It's the right balance of weight/feedback (feel)/on-center feel/precision/directness. The modern cars lack some feel but deliver hugely in the other categories. So it depends what attributes matter to you most - if road feel is most important then 46M wins, if anything else matters then it's not such an easy choice.

Next, I've been very candid and fair about the turbo motor. There are things about it that DO bother me a bit. On the other hand, there can be things that bother me and it still be very good at the same time. Just because the S54 has a better overall character doesn't make the S55 bad. But again, a great motor is a balance of character/response/delivery/precision/power/thrill/sound. Two motors can be very different but score high in multiple categories.

Finally, I would hugely disagree that a non-M 46 is anywhere near as enjoyable as a 36M on a canyon run. Yes, it's close objectively but falls massively short in the fun category. The 46 has marsh mellows for drive-line mounts and fcabs and is nowhere near as responsive or sharp as the 36M - different universe really. And the motor is much less punchy, even the 330. The non-M e46 is svelte and lazy.

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Originally Posted by M spec View Post
That’s a plus for the f80, IMO, as you don’t NEED to modify like you do the e46 for it to be enjoyable.
I've always been of the opinion that the 46M was perfect bone stock... except for its shocks.

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Originally Posted by TboneM3 View Post
That's fine. I still would say the E46 M3 is one of the best cars to have for an enthusiast because of its access, aftermarket, and cool (looks/sound/feel) factor.
For sure. Super fun car to own and maintain and modify and drive.

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Originally Posted by M spec View Post
Driven the way we drive our e46’s, you certainly NEED to modify them. Stock they’re just far to spongy, where as the f8x chassis is very stiff from the factory.
I wouldn't call the 46M spongy BUT it is far, far softer than an F80 ZCP in both chassis and suspension tuning. The new car is dramatically more hardcore. More road noise, more vibration, stiffer, flatter and more direct in every sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TboneM3 View Post
Ya, I think there's a Goldilocks factor here. I think the E46 M3 hits the sweet spots on most everything, and why it's such a classic already.
Yessir.

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Originally Posted by terraphantm View Post
I think it’s also important to note that the ideal compromise will be different for different people. I won’t necessarily value the same characteristics as Obioban or EricSMG. For example, the notion that the F8x isn’t exciting seems alien to me. The most fun I’ve had in a car recently was driving my friend’s F8x - I hadn’t grinned like that in a long time. (On the other hand, same friend drove my car, and is now planning on adding a Z4M + Karbonius airbox to his stable.)
Yeah, I can't fathom how someone doesn't find the F8XM exciting. It may not be perfect but thrilling/fun it most certainly is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
Sorry...this is spot on. A new model M3 is going to be different. Otherwise...why even make a new model?

An E46 has an ancient and deficient suspension design by today’s standards. Why would you want BMW to continue to copy that 20 years later?

The E9X has a vastly superior design to the E46 and the F8X has a superior design to the E9X. I own and love my E90 M3 but that’s the fact.

If you like the E46 M3 so much...buy one. Don’t b1tch about why BMW doesn’t want to reproduce an outdated and inferior product by current standards.


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Every generation gets faster and more competent. The 46M's suspension layout/design is closer to 30 years old now as it first debuted on the E36. The 46M got a stiffer shell/mounts/bushings/springs/dampers/sways but used the same architecture.

This is NOT to say the 46M lacks in the handling department - it certainly doesn't, but the new stuff is in a different league entirely.
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Old Thu, Oct-11-2018, 05:08:23 AM   #122
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

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Originally Posted by EricSMG View Post
This is NOT to say the 46M lacks in the handling department - it certainly doesn't, but the new stuff is in a different league entirely.

For me, that’s the fun part. Tuning these cars can be quirky and highly rewarding if you get it right.

It’s no secret, I love the E90 M3 more than the E46 M3. It doesn’t mean that the E46 M3 wasn’t a unique and awesome car for its time.

But to compare each successive generation of M3 doesn’t really make sense. The E30M3 is slower than a modern Honda Civic...and what M3 owner would ever find getting beat by a stock civic acceptable? But E30 M3s sell for more than its sticker price 30 years later.


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Old Thu, Oct-11-2018, 05:20:49 AM   #123
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

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Originally Posted by Voss View Post
Let’s be real, once you graduate to 911s, there’s no looking back to BMW.
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Originally Posted by Paulo M View Post
Lmao this
is silly. Blind brand fanboyism/purism once again. Like I said earlier, you can evolve a platform without taking away its core. Mazda has been doing it with the Miata since the Miata's inception, Subaru with their STis, and even Porsche which you use as an example knows not to piss off its enthusiast base. Case in point? The 911 is still pretty much a rear engine car. If they actually genuinely didn't care, they'd go the way of Chevy which moved the engine from the front of the car to the middle. Cayman's mid engine bare bones is superior, everyone knows it, even if the assembled end product is kept intentionally inferior. Maybe the 911 thing will have more merit once the engine is squarely behind my head instead of a cavernous space eaten up by a GMG roll bar.

We can want something from a brand or move on to another brand, it's actually okay to have preferences as a buyer and not just be a simple sheep buyer. S'why I drive a variety of cars. We don't have to agree with corporate execs when they get angry that we don't like their product.
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Old Thu, Oct-11-2018, 05:46:39 AM   #124
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

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Originally Posted by RedOctober330 View Post
I’m not sure anyone here is the one bitching...seemed like it was the BMW corporate folks who were doing the bitching. And instead of being upset ab how people won’t “shut up” ab the e46 M3, why doesn’t BMW relook at it, figure out what they got right, and try to reproduce those aspects in a new version? Does anyone want outdated suspension? Of course not. But maybe figure out a way to reproduce the road feel or steering feel or such things that make the e46 M crowd such feverish enthusiasts.

Clearly they did something right with the e46 M; otherwise people wouldn’t be talking about it 13 years after it stopped production. Why not figure out why?
I totally agree, but I would just say that it'd be nigh on impossible to do without actually going backwards, because, imo, I think what makes the E46 so awesome is its blend of mechanical/analogue and electronics/tech! We want some, but not too much. I don't want to open the hood and crank the engine by hand, but I want to shift manually. I don't want to turn the wheel 10 times to get out of my driveway, but I don't want much assist.

Everybody's different. For me, the e36 is even more my speed (pun intended), but the e46 is too good looking and, basically, a hot-rodded e36 anyway. What I love about mine is no sunroof, no nav, no pdc, no headlight tilt, less bloat imo. E36-E39-E46 is the sweet spot for me.
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Old Thu, Oct-11-2018, 05:51:37 AM   #125
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

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Originally Posted by LateBraking View Post
is silly. Blind brand fanboyism/purism once again.

We can want something from a brand or move on to another brand, it's actually okay to have preferences as a buyer and not just be a simple sheep buyer. S'why I drive a variety of cars. We don't have to agree with corporate execs when they get angry that we don't like their product.
Name calling those that have different opinion, good job guy

Who are you again in the car industry? You’re just some random nobody that drives an old bmw. Your opinion holds no weight over a fanboy lol.
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Old Thu, Oct-11-2018, 05:58:47 AM   #126
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

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Name calling those that have different opinion, good job guy

Who are you again in the car industry? You’re just some random nobody that drives an old bmw. Your opinion holds no weight over a fanboy lol.
I thought I tailored my language and opinion in a way that was appropriate for the sensitive nature of a forum discussion, but apparently not. I said it's fanboyism, and it really is inherent fanboyism, and really I said it was silly, I didn't "call you names" per se, but you're right in that we're all random nobodies and none of our opinions matter, and I apologize for having caused you offense and distress. I look forward to reading any counter-responses to the points I actually raised.
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Old Thu, Oct-11-2018, 06:03:27 AM   #127
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

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Originally Posted by LateBraking View Post
I thought I tailored my language and opinion in a way that was appropriate for the sensitive nature of a forum discussion, but apparently not. I said it's fanboyism, and it really is inherent fanboyism, and really I said it was silly, I didn't "call you names" per se, but you're right in that we're all random nobodies and none of our opinions matter, and I apologize for having caused you offense and distress.
Ha rather fanboyism than crying to bmw wanting resurrection of an 18yr old mass produced 3series. Sensitive? I’m not the one unhappy with new cars...

If you keep bitching about a 2020 e46 m3, maybe, just maybe bmw will listen to you.
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Old Thu, Oct-11-2018, 06:05:34 AM   #128
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

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Ha rather fanboyism than crying to bmw wanting resurrection of an 18yr old mass produced 3series.

If you keep bitching about a 2020 e46 m3, maybe, just maybe bmw will listen to you.
My point was mostly just that no actual relevant points were raised other than blind fanboyist passion and points which I commented against, but....well, I'm not sure really where you're going with your comments to be honest other than the fact that you seem upset. But eh, I'm moving on since that's what you're honing on rather than actually raising a discussion.
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Old Thu, Oct-11-2018, 06:08:09 AM   #129
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

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My point was mostly just that no actual relevant points were raised other than blind fanboyist passion and points which I commented against, but....well, I'm not sure really where you're going with your comments to be honest other than the fact that you still seem upset. But eh, I'm moving on since that's what you're honing on rather than actually raising a discussion.
You keep implying I’m upset. Yet you’re the one upset with bmw like they owe you something
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Old Thu, Oct-11-2018, 06:28:14 AM   #130
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Default Re: BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts

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Originally Posted by LateBraking View Post
is silly. Blind brand fanboyism/purism once again. Like I said earlier, you can evolve a platform without taking away its core. Mazda has been doing it with the Miata since the Miata's inception, Subaru with their STis, and even Porsche which you use as an example knows not to piss off its enthusiast base. Case in point? The 911 is still pretty much a rear engine car. If they actually genuinely didn't care, they'd go the way of Chevy which moved the engine from the front of the car to the middle. Cayman's mid engine bare bones is superior, everyone knows it, even if the assembled end product is kept intentionally inferior. Maybe the 911 thing will have more merit once the engine is squarely behind my head instead of a cavernous space eaten up by a GMG roll bar.

We can want something from a brand or move on to another brand, it's actually okay to have preferences as a buyer and not just be a simple sheep buyer. S'why I drive a variety of cars. We don't have to agree with corporate execs when they get angry that we don't like their product.
I have actually heard the new miatas are awesome cars and they don’t look half bad either. As for Porsche, I’ll always be a 911 fanboy because Will Smith in Bad Boys, but you gotta wonder; if the GT4 had the same engine as a GT3, how amazing would that be?
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Discussing BMW upset with E46 M3 enthusiasts in the E46 M3 (2001-2006) Forum - Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006. at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)