[Serious]

I like the engine, like the looks, can live with the interior, hate Idrive, and think its going to be the new 850i/z8 (that isnt a good thing).

['95 M3]

Originally Posted by Doctor Love

FYI this has happened to varying degrees every time a new M3 has come out, and it probably always will.

Agreed. The E30 owners didn't like the E36, the E36 owners blasted the E46, and now the E46 crowd is not pleased with the E92. A lot of current M3 owners can appreciate the improvements made in subsequent M3's while still loving their own car. I'm not sure why so many people see it as an "us" against "them" scenario.

I think that there are a significant number of people who don't care for the interior design (especially the lack of focus on the driver's positioning with the dash these days), but I believe that a large percentage of the "haters" fall into several distinct categories:

1) Have an E46 M3 and can't stand the thought that they no longer have the latest and greatest. Now, this is a very generalized statement, since many E46 owners like the new design, but as quoted above this is a trend that we've seen many times before. Heck, I even saw an article in our local BMW CCA chapter newsletter from a guy who bought an E46 M3 with the Competition Package and who felt the need to rip apart the non-competition package E46 M3's as if they were all soft, body rolling, non-stopping, barges that could barely get out of their own way. What nonsense, but that is what happens when something new comes out........the people who like the new tend to rip on the old, and the people who own the older version tend to get defensive and dig in their heels (in the case of the article I mentioned, rightly so).

2) Don't like the new design because it is different. Change is never easy, and many people resist all change to the point where anything different is bad. Again, we've seen this before, and let's face it, Chris Bangle hasn't exactly made a lot of friends with the folks who have had BMWs in their garages for the last 20 or 30 years with some of his latest designs. I think that a negative backlash exists for some people due to the fact that it is another new design under the supervision of Bangle.

3) And, here it is, the group that will start foaming at the mouth and flaming me as if I suggested that burning books is a good thing. I think that BMW's decision to release the car with only a manual transmission (at first) has alienated and scared the crap out of a lot of people out there who can't drive a stick shift. I recently read that supposedly only 15% of the American population with driver's licenses can drive a stick. That is shocking! Just wait and see if the number of haters doesn't decrease significantly when BMW introduces the latest version of SMG or DCT or whatever they want to call it. Suddenly, there will be all kinds of folks who swear that they still don't love the car, but the new cough, cough, choke, "manual" transmission (aka DCT, SMG III, whatever) makes the car so much better that they had to get one. Just watch and see if I'm not right on that one.

Flame suit on............go ahead.

[Thrill]

I'm always the early adapter with most things. Funny thing is when I see pic's of the E30 the first thing that comes to my mind is best M3 ever. The new M3 will be a great car, I don't think there is any question about that. There is always resistance to change.

[Rez]

Originally Posted by '95 M3

Agreed. The E30 owners didn't like the E36, the E36 owners blasted the E46, and now the E46 crowd is not pleased with the E92. A lot of current M3 owners can appreciate the improvements made in subsequent M3's while still loving their own car. I'm not sure why so many people see it as an "us" against "them" scenario.

I think that there are a significant number of people who don't care for the interior design (especially the lack of focus on the driver's positioning with the dash these days), but I believe that a large percentage of the "haters" fall into several distinct categories:

1) Have an E46 M3 and can't stand the thought that they no longer have the latest and greatest. Now, this is a very generalized statement, since many E46 owners like the new design, but as quoted above this is a trend that we've seen many times before. Heck, I even saw an article in our local BMW CCA chapter newsletter from a guy who bought an E46 M3 with the Competition Package and who felt the need to rip apart the non-competition package E46 M3's as if they were all soft, body rolling, non-stopping, barges that could barely get out of their own way. What nonsense, but that is what happens when something new comes out........the people who like the new tend to rip on the old, and the people who own the older version tend to get defensive and dig in their heels (in the case of the article I mentioned, rightly so).

2) Don't like the new design because it is different. Change is never easy, and many people resist all change to the point where anything different is bad. Again, we've seen this before, and let's face it, Chris Bangle hasn't exactly made a lot of friends with the folks who have had BMWs in their garages for the last 20 or 30 years with some of his latest designs. I think that a negative backlash exists for some people due to the fact that it is another new design under the supervision of Bangle.

3) And, here it is, the group that will start foaming at the mouth and flaming me as if I suggested that burning books is a good thing. I think that BMW's decision to release the car with only a manual transmission (at first) has alienated and scared the crap out of a lot of people out there who can't drive a stick shift. I recently read that supposedly only 15% of the American population with driver's licenses can drive a stick. That is shocking! Just wait and see if the number of haters doesn't decrease significantly when BMW introduces the latest version of SMG or DCT or whatever they want to call it. Suddenly, there will be all kinds of folks who swear that they still don't love the car, but the new cough, cough, choke, "manual" transmission (aka DCT, SMG III, whatever) makes the car so much better that they had to get one. Just watch and see if I'm not right on that one.

Flame suit on............go ahead.

All fair assessments.

[///Daasca]

'95 M3,

Thank you for such a detailed and well thought out response.

As for your 3rd category, I had not even considered the manual only option a reason for the lack of love for the E92 M3 currently being dispayed on this forum. You may be on to something there. I wonder what the percentage of drivers on the forum that do not know how to drive a manual is.

Thanks again.

[L1Trauma]

One thing to bear in mind is that the haters & the fanboiz have opinions about everything that are fairly worthless to someone making a buying decision. Interior, for example. Groupthink says Audi is better, but I don't see much of a difference -- and I hate the MMI console. Who cares what I think? If anyone here can't make up their mind on the car until they read the forums I would be worried. So don't worry why the haters hate the car. At least you can expect fanboiz on a BMW forum but the haters that repeatedly post mystify me. Perhaps they follow this law



OTOH, figure out what facts about the car you like/don't like, decide what you think about the looks, and drive one. For me, I know I like it enough without driving based on my E46 ownership experience, sitting in a 335 and my trust of the M division, so I've rolled the dice and will purchase without a drive.

[ArtM3]

name a better engine that costs less money?

over priced?...what about the 997, a slug comapred to the e92, and barely equal to the e46, and it costs a whole lot more money...and it's a 2 seat sports car vs a 4 seat sedan!

the new e92 weighs 3640 with 75 kg of driver and 90% fuel.. <3500 without the 75 kg, but WITH 90% fuel...
you keep pulling numbers out of you butt...the e46 weighs ~3400 unloaded...

Originally Posted by Porschec4

my thing about it isnt the engine. while there are better ones out there, its great for the price, but still an overpriced car IMO.

i mainly dont like the exterior and interior.

i also still think the e46 m3 is the best looking of the m3, hands down. plus with all the mods i have, i dont think a stock e92 m3 will be able to take my car in a straight or on a track...that well see when they hit the roads and i race one.

and to me, the weight is a serious issue to me. my m3 weighs 33XX lbs, the new ones gonna be 37XX lbs, some 400 lbs heavier and its softer and more body roll and understeer. i want a somewhat light car that looks good, has a good engine, and is more sports car than GT.

[ArtM3]

what if the extra weight is lower, as in cf roof, and lighter extremities?

or stiffer springs in sport mode?
or thicker sway bars?

you've never driven one

Originally Posted by Porschec4

how do you figure it has less body roll and less understeer with more weight and a softer suspension? that spells it out right there. im still going to test drive the car and drive the hell out of it to see what its made of, and if they come out with aftermarket stuff that can make the exterior look good, i might still buy one, thats why i check here. a new front bumper and new rear bumper would make the car looks much better. i actually think the 335 coupes are stunning cars, and if they look good, with some very heavy aftermarket stuff the m3 *might* also. i like the engine, and can prob change the problems with the exterior and can learn to live with the terrible interior it *might* be a good car to thrash around and mod for 6 months to a year.
the weight thing is based off of what my e46 m3 weighs...its in low to mid 33XX range...and if the new m3 weighs 37XX like i think its going to and like some mags have suggested, then in comparison to MY m3 its gonna be about 400 lbs more.

[PKumarM3]

I dont think its hating as in more just, "I don't like the way the car looks". Everyone should realize squeezint 400 hp out of a 4.0L v8 is a great engineering marvel. So was squeezing 333hp out of a 3.2L six cylinder, as was squeezing the 355 or so HP from the same engine for the CSL. Engineering wise, the M3 is amazing, not as amazing or supassing the fellows from Porsche, but still pretty good.

I think alot of the bashing comes from the fact that the US price seems like its going to expand into the mid 60s low 70s, especially since a fully loaded E46 ran up there in price at the end of the model run. For that price, why not get a Porsche, which happens to be a much better vehicle at that price point. For what you pay, you arent getting the BEST at that price range. I think thats where alot of anger comes from. With that same argument, I think the amount of R&D and actual better engineering components you get with porsche are far superior than w/the M3. The biggest thorn in my side are the brakes we get with our m3s. I mean, if you are claiming this car to be a race bred car, we need a BMW BBK from the factory, AMG gives it to their cars, Audi to their S cars, and even our competitors (EVO and STi) get them. For the price we have or WILL pay, we need to have the best. I think thats where the hate exists.

Personally, I initially thought the new BMW was pretty hot. Was it as hot as the E46 when I first saw it (at the time i was driving a 99 E36 M3 convertible), HELL NO! I was a devout E36 guy and was dreaming of the E46. That passion didn't show up when they revealed this monster in Geneva.

The exterior is too bubblicious for me. The rear doesnt appeal to me. And the interior is too 6series like, which i found too wide and too big for me. I thought the E36 was lacking in terms of its interior, i dont find that in the E46. I think the E46 interior is timeless. The nav is modern looking (don't know how functional it is since ive never used one), the interior lights are a good color, the steering wheel was a perfect upgrade from the boring 3 spoke wheel w/no volume or radio controls on the e36 to a modern but still race car like thick wheeled wheel. I think the new steering wheel is a step down. I would rather they copy the Gallardo and RS4 and the CLK63AMG Black w/the flat bottomed steering wheel. Also the push start button is played out. Thats cool u press a button! Thanks, but no thanks! its a gimmick, and its pointless.

For me, the lip spoiler on the e46 never did anything for me. The CSL bootlid, although played out, really brings some beauty out. The CSL integrated lip on the spoiler and the E30 spoiler were the only 2 rears of M3s that i liked (not to mention the CSL non functional diffuser---whatever, still hot). The E90 rear, I mean, I dont want to bash, but I don't think its pretty. Too m6 wanna be.

Anyways, tear into me, tell me what u think!

[Porschec4]

Originally Posted by rvacha

No magazines have suggested it. You're making it up. Go here and read the PDF. There are only TWO differences between US spec and ROW spec - seat cushions and fuel tank leak detector. That's it. It's going to weigh 1655kg in the US, just as the document says. Per this doc it weighs 85kg/187lb more than the E46 M3. Per that same spec your E46 M3 weighs 1570kg/3461lb, not even close to the "low to mid 33XX range" you say it does. Granted the EU weights are laden, and do not represent an empty car, but nonetheless you are WAY off

YES IT DOES. read this tb...from Automobile Magazine Review of the New M3

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The 2008 BMW M3 is either a complete winner or a big disappointment. It all depends on your expectations.

If you're looking for a supremely fast, incredibly capable back-road stormer, you won't be disappointed; the E92 is even faster than the previous E46 M3.

If, however, you think the M3 should be more than just speed, you'll be disappointed. After only a few seconds behind the wheel, it becomes obvious that the M3's engineers traded some driver involvement in return for more speed.

More speed, in this case, comes from the retirement of the inline-six cylinder engine that has defined the previous two generations of M3s. As it turns out, there was no more power to be had from a block with six holes in it. The previous 3.2-liter developed 333 horsepower, and the only way to add more ponies would have been to add more displacement. That sounds easy enough, but it wasn't - the engine block was already bored to its maximum, and increasing the stroke would have reduced the engine's maximum RPM. Thus, the engineers had no choice but to add two more cylinders.



The new V-8 is anything but a half-hearted attempt at fixing the problem. It is, after all, based on the powerhouse V-10 from the M5. Whereas the old inline-six was iron, the V-engines' larger bore spacing allows them to be made of aluminum, and as a result, the V-8 actually weighs 33 lb less than the old six. We've covered the detailed engine specifications in previous stories, but the important numbers are very impressive: 4.0-liters, 414 horsepower, 295 lb-ft, 8400-rpm redline.

Press the start button, and the V-8 barks to life instantly with a tinny clatter from its thin-walled, equal-length headers. Eight individual butterflies minimize the distance between the throttle butterflies and intake valves, so the engine responds instantaneously to prods of the accelerator.

Though the clutch is a twin-disc design (the first in an M3), the pedal is soft and easy to modulate. The shifter is familiar 3-series, which is to say precise and satisfying, if slightly rubbery.

Mash the loud pedal, and the quiet V-8 turns into a screaming demon. Thrust builds gradually until 3900 rpm (the torque peak), but never falls off. In fact, the engine's note becomes more and more hysterical as the tach swings clockwise. From 6000 to the 8400-rpm rev limiter, it sounds angrier and more ferocious than any V-8 you've ever heard this side of Maranello. The soundtrack is nothing short of magic.



Thanks to our tester's Electronic Damper Control, ride quality is phenomenal. On Spain's smooth roads, it seems far more complaint than the previous M3's, and yet body motions are perfectly controlled. The new M3 understeers mildly, but that's easily fixed with a nudge of the right foot: in second gear, the rear will easily step out into a controlled power slide. In faster corners, lots of throttle induces gorgeous four-wheel drifts.

The biggest letdown - and it's a huge one - is the steering. Whereas other 3-series (and all previous M3s) read the road surface to your fingertips, the M3 is frustratingly numb on center. It transmits only the largest of messages, and effort is too light and doesn't build naturally. The ratio is wonderfully quick but, to add insult to injury, the M3's turning radius feels vastly larger than any other 3-series.



Brake feel is excellent, but pedal effort rose precipitously during lapping of the 26-turn Ascari racetrack in Spain despite aggressive (read: noisy) pads. Even though we had to pull into pit lane for a few minutes after each lap, brake fade set in after a few laps. The M3's hefty curb weight is to blame - we expect it to weigh more than 3,700 lb when it arrives stateside. And while BMW has gone to great lengths to keep curb weight down - the carbon fiber roof, a huge cost item, saves eleven pounds - the fact is that the M3 has gained almost a half ton in twenty years.

The list of 3-series parts redesigned and re-engineered for M3 use is staggering - the V-8 car shares surprisingly few parts with those with a six-cylinder under the hood. BMW isn't known for frivolous modifications, and all of the changes serve a performance purpose. Unfortunately, they seem to also dilute the driving experience. Once a direct, raw, and frenetic monster, the M3 has morphed into a polished and refined grand tourer.

The original M3 was a track-ready, high-strung performer that made no excuses in its performance. As fun in a 15-mph school zone as it was at ten-tenths on a race track, it dominated everything that came its way. And while it's likely that the new M3 is faster around the Nordschleife than its competitors, it's lost a good bit of the driver involvement that has made previous Ms legends.

At the end of the day, we don't just expect fast lap times from an M3, we expect it to put a big smile on our faces. And this time around, the smiles just aren't as big.

since i OWNED you on that...lets move to the next issue.

my car is not stock...so therefore you wouldnt know what it weighs, I DO! ive had it weighed and it came in at 33XX.

AGAIN!

Originally Posted by M3onTwomps

oh and sicne i just owned your boy, yea i OWNED you too fanboi!