BMW M3 Forum
BMW M3 Forum BMW M3 Gallery BMW M3 Reviews BMW M3 Social Groups BMW M3 Chat M3Forum Sponsors >>
Loading


Mobile M3forum
Go Back   BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X) > BMW M3 Discussions > E46 M3 (2001-2006)
Tire Rack Buy Winter Tires Now!
Not a member? Register Now!
Register Gallery All Albums Garage Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Calendar FAQ

E46 M3 (2001-2006) Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old Thu, Nov-02-2017, 05:29:06 PM   #31
ECSTuning
M3Forum Sponsor
 
ECSTuning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,384
Reputation: 0 ECSTuning is on a distinguished road

United States




Default Re: Brake upgrade options

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricSMG View Post
Yes, but ships on 1/18/18. Do you think this is legitimate? Would you take the Zimmermans just as well?
Ship date is usually pretty accurate for these, keep in mind the shipping date will update daily (so tomorrow it'll go a day out, then two days further out, etc since I don't have a stocking order on them right now.

-James
__________________

ECS Tuning your #1 source for all things German automotive
Customer Service Hours: M - F 8:00am - 8:00pm EST | Saturday: 10:00am - 7:00pm EST
Sales Team Hours: M - F 8:00am - 11:00pm EST | Saturday: 10:00am - 7:00pm EST
800.924.5172 | OEM BMW Part Number Search
sales@ecstuning.com | customerservice@ecstuning.com
Jump to top ECSTuning is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Register now and remove these ads
Old Thu, Nov-02-2017, 06:50:36 PM   #32
I M Legend
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 793
Reputation: 0 I M Legend is on a distinguished road

United States




Default Re: Brake upgrade options

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
Front rotor weights:
euro M3 (not sure why anyone wouldn't be running this at this point): 7.5 kg
US M3: 8.17 kg
ZCP: 8.55 kg

Rear rotor weights:
euro M3: 6.8 kg (again, everyone should be running this at this point)
US M3: 7.4 kg
CSL/ZCP: 6.8 kg (it is the euro standard M3 rotor)


So, no-- ZCP brakes are heavier than the US brakes, and significantly heavier than the Euro rotors that I assume people would actually be running after the cars first set. Large diameter means the additional weight is more noticeable, too.

They do move the bias rearward, which is "good". But, so long as you're in the design parameters of the system, I don't think it matter that much-- the MK60's brake force distribution allocates braking force to whatever optimizes stopping quite effectively (which is why Porsche race cars often retrofit it). So, I don't think there's a significant benefit to stopping power (that said, the ZCP/CSL MK60 firmware load does raise the ABS intervention threshold, which does improve stopping distances).

heat capacity: until there's a non drilled option, I'd say no. Drilled rotors become cracked rotors when heated.

Most of all, though, I think the greatest benefit of a BBK is ease of pad swaps and precise pedal modulation/feel-- neither of which the CSL/ZCP setup helps with at all. Solid guides can't improve the pedal modulation/feel, but they require yearly upkeep and still only get you half way there.

Value... well, that comes down to the person doing it. I have stock brakes on the M3 wagon, and can't see any scenario in which I put CSL/ZCP brakes on it. If I need more than the stock M3 brakes are providing, ZCP/CSL isn't going to cut it either. But, for street use, the stock M3 brakes are more than enough (and half the price of ZCP/CSL to service). But, I do miss the pedal feel/modulation from my BBKed coupe pretty much every time I drive the wagon.

Overall, they just seem like a weird no mans land to me. BBK service costs, nearly stock M3 brake performance.
Interesting. I may be interpreting your comments wrong but it sounds like the CSL got a brake downgrade as compared to other non-CSL Euro M3s?

Or are you saying if you only change the fronts to the CSL/ZCP that it's a downgrade as compared to Euro Fronts?
__________________
Jump to top I M Legend is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Thu, Nov-02-2017, 07:02:41 PM   #33
KS Golfer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 659
Reputation: 0 KS Golfer is on a distinguished road
Location: Wichita

United States




Default Re: Brake upgrade options

i could see how it would be viewed as a downgrade for the street due to additional cost and maintenance, but for ultimate lap times, i'd bet the larger rotors up front and more rearward bias assist with the most consistent complaint i heard from M3 guys - fade.

instead of searching i'm going to take the easy way out and ask on the off chance somebody is willing to answer....can you fit the porsche brakes to the non-ZCP rotors?

i'm guessing that's really just a question of if somebody makes a bracket for it or not.
__________________
Jump to top KS Golfer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Thu, Nov-02-2017, 07:12:27 PM   #34
mrgizmo04
Registered User
 
mrgizmo04's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,532
In the garage:
Reputation: 0 mrgizmo04 is on a distinguished road
Location: Menlo Park

United States




Default Re: Brake upgrade options

Quote:
Originally Posted by KS Golfer View Post
i could see how it would be viewed as a downgrade for the street due to additional cost and maintenance, but for ultimate lap times, i'd bet the larger rotors up front and more rearward bias assist with the most consistent complaint i heard from M3 guys - fade.

instead of searching i'm going to take the easy way out and ask on the off chance somebody is willing to answer....can you fit the porsche brakes to the non-ZCP rotors?

i'm guessing that's really just a question of if somebody makes a bracket for it or not.


Not answering the question you posted about Porsche brakes, but with larger size rotor that is lighter...what is the ultimate compromise on strength/amount of material for heat dissipation/crack resistance? Not really posing the q back to you, just brain storming. For the street, would you really notice less mass and why do you care? For the track, back to my above question.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
'85 528e 164k miles (sold)
'05 M3 6MT coupe

All DIY: 330 ZHP steering rack, diffsonline 4.1 diff with rem polish, E60 short shifter lever, AKG black diff bushings/subframe bushings, Rogue rtab, WPC rod bearings, Beyer driveshaft, full SS (SS stepped V1, catted S1, resonated S2, SS sport), Sachs clutch/flywheel, rear main, VANOS bullet proofing with anti-rattle, valve adjustment, cooling refresh, Ohlins R&T/Swift 448f 672r/GC street tops and camber plates, AFD E85 Proflex kit.

Happy to help with VANOS or any other DIY job around NorCal
Jump to top mrgizmo04 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Thu, Nov-02-2017, 07:19:58 PM   #35
Obioban
Moderator
 
Obioban's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 36,577
In the garage:
Reputation: 54 Obioban has a spectacular aura about
Location: SE PA

United States




Default Re: Brake upgrade options

Quote:
Originally Posted by I M Legend View Post
Interesting. I may be interpreting your comments wrong but it sounds like the CSL got a brake downgrade as compared to other non-CSL Euro M3s?

Or are you saying if you only change the fronts to the CSL/ZCP that it's a downgrade as compared to Euro Fronts?
Cost not considered, in a world where aftermarket brake options don't exist, they're probably a bit better on track due to the larger rotor.

But, while those two conditions are true for BMW, they're not for us.
__________________

Current Cars: 2005 IR/IR M3, 2001 LMB/blk M5, 03 530i, 04 M3 wagon, and some boring stuff
Past cars: 04 M3, 96 M3, S50B32 e36 M3 CM race car
Jump to top Obioban is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Thu, Nov-02-2017, 07:24:58 PM   #36
Obioban
Moderator
 
Obioban's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 36,577
In the garage:
Reputation: 54 Obioban has a spectacular aura about
Location: SE PA

United States




Default Re: Brake upgrade options

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrgizmo04 View Post
Not answering the question you posted about Porsche brakes, but with larger size rotor that is lighter...what is the ultimate compromise on strength/amount of material for heat dissipation/crack resistance? Not really posing the q back to you, just brain storming. For the street, would you really notice less mass and why do you care? For the track, back to my above question.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
A high quality aftermarket rotor is the ultimate "compromise" (also the most expensive route).

E.g. a Brembo 335/32 slotted front rotor is 7.35 kg-- lighter than any of the OE front rotor options, MUCH more heat capacity, better floating mechanism, and can be purchased slotted, making them much more resistant to cracking in high heat.
And has lighter calipers.
And has bigger pads, for longer service life per pad
And has multiple pistons, so the pad is pressed evenly on all sides, making pads last longer
And is rigidly mounted for much better pedal feel/modulation
And allows pad swaps without removing the caliper, making it easy to go back and forth from street pads to track pads
And has seals that hold up to track heat without falling apart.

Unsprung rotating mass is pretty easy to feel-- e.g. every spring when I go from winters (heavy stock wheels) to summers (light weight aftermarket wheels), it's like ejecting a passenger from the car (in terms of change in driving dynamics, not including the grip change).
__________________

Current Cars: 2005 IR/IR M3, 2001 LMB/blk M5, 03 530i, 04 M3 wagon, and some boring stuff
Past cars: 04 M3, 96 M3, S50B32 e36 M3 CM race car

Last edited by Obioban; Thu, Nov-02-2017 at 07:29:28 PM.
Jump to top Obioban is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Thu, Nov-02-2017, 07:42:05 PM   #37
EricSMG
40 something
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 10,902
Reputation: 0 EricSMG is on a distinguished road
Location: San Diego

United States




Default Re: Brake upgrade options

Quote:
Originally Posted by I M Legend View Post
Interesting. I may be interpreting your comments wrong but it sounds like the CSL got a brake downgrade as compared to other non-CSL Euro M3s?

Or are you saying if you only change the fronts to the CSL/ZCP that it's a downgrade as compared to Euro Fronts?
I'm perplexed a bit, too. The Euro rotors are lightweight relative to the US non-ZCP cars. So that's a plus. They're drilled, though, which seems to be a con.

The ZCP cars have the same Euro rear rotors (upgraded) but heavier but larger front rotors, still seems like an upgrade in terms of raw braking. But crossdrilled.

However, most BBKs (and virtually all exotic cars) have drilled rotors so, aside from hardcore track use, this seems to be the "thing you do".

Quote:
Originally Posted by KS Golfer View Post
i could see how it would be viewed as a downgrade for the street due to additional cost and maintenance, but for ultimate lap times, i'd bet the larger rotors up front and more rearward bias assist with the most consistent complaint i heard from M3 guys - fade.
That's what I'm getting at. From a purely mechanical standpoint the ZCP setup is an upgrade. More leverage up front, aluminum hats and more clamping force out back means more overall power and less fade (to a point). It just seems to be the worst value?

Edit: for the street I'm sold on Euro rotors all around with BMW pads. This will give the car a little bling and notably reduce rotating mass.
__________________


'04 SG/Black 6MT || '04 JB/IR SMG

Last edited by EricSMG; Thu, Nov-02-2017 at 07:51:39 PM.
Jump to top EricSMG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Thu, Nov-02-2017, 07:42:40 PM   #38
mrgizmo04
Registered User
 
mrgizmo04's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,532
In the garage:
Reputation: 0 mrgizmo04 is on a distinguished road
Location: Menlo Park

United States




Default Re: Brake upgrade options

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
A high quality aftermarket rotor is the ultimate "compromise" (also the most expensive route).

E.g. a Brembo 335/32 slotted front rotor is 7.35 kg-- lighter than any of the OE front rotor options, MUCH more heat capacity, better floating mechanism, and can be purchased slotted, making them much more resistant to cracking in high heat.
And has lighter calipers.
And has bigger pads, for longer service life per pad
And has multiple pistons, so the pad is pressed evenly on all sides, making pads last longer
And is rigidly mounted for much better pedal feel/modulation
And allows pad swaps without removing the caliper, making it easy to go back and forth from street pads to track pads
And has seals that hold up to track heat without falling apart.

Unsprung rotating mass is pretty easy to feel-- e.g. every spring when I go from winters (heavy stock wheels) to summers (light weight aftermarket wheels), it's like ejecting a passenger from the car (in terms of change in driving dynamics, not including the grip change).


Yeah, then cost is a big factor.

My comment/question was more specific to going to lighter eur m3 rotor cross drilled for street (why do you really care? looks?) vs track (which could have disadvantages in terms of cracking/etc).

Completely with you on a quality rotor/larger calipers/more pistons/ bbk kit for track. For street...looks only? To each his/her own I guess, form over function, etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
'85 528e 164k miles (sold)
'05 M3 6MT coupe

All DIY: 330 ZHP steering rack, diffsonline 4.1 diff with rem polish, E60 short shifter lever, AKG black diff bushings/subframe bushings, Rogue rtab, WPC rod bearings, Beyer driveshaft, full SS (SS stepped V1, catted S1, resonated S2, SS sport), Sachs clutch/flywheel, rear main, VANOS bullet proofing with anti-rattle, valve adjustment, cooling refresh, Ohlins R&T/Swift 448f 672r/GC street tops and camber plates, AFD E85 Proflex kit.

Happy to help with VANOS or any other DIY job around NorCal
Jump to top mrgizmo04 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Thu, Nov-02-2017, 07:48:05 PM   #39
Obioban
Moderator
 
Obioban's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 36,577
In the garage:
Reputation: 54 Obioban has a spectacular aura about
Location: SE PA

United States




Default Re: Brake upgrade options

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricSMG View Post
However, most BBKs (and virtually all exotic cars) have drilled rotors so, aside from hardcore track use, this seems to be the "thing you do"
The drilled is the same reasoning as the cast 19s on the CSL/ZCP, IMO-- people like how it looks :P
(pretty clearly a heavy 19 was not the optimal wheel choice for the CSL from a performance perspective)

Technically it also makes the rotors slightly lighter, as well, and the cracking is only an issue if you're exposing the rotor to track type heat.
__________________

Current Cars: 2005 IR/IR M3, 2001 LMB/blk M5, 03 530i, 04 M3 wagon, and some boring stuff
Past cars: 04 M3, 96 M3, S50B32 e36 M3 CM race car
Jump to top Obioban is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Thu, Nov-02-2017, 07:58:01 PM   #40
terraphantm
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 11,269
In the garage:
Reputation: 11 terraphantm is on a distinguished road
Location: Philadelphia

United States




Default Re: Brake upgrade options

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricSMG View Post
I'm perplexed a bit, too. The Euro rotors are lightweight relative to the US non-ZCP cars. So that's a plus. They're drilled, though, which seems to be a con.

The ZCP cars have the same Euro rear rotors (upgraded) but heavier but larger front rotors, still seems like an upgrade in terms of raw braking. But crossdrilled.
I mean you might not think it's justified, but I don't see what's so perplexing - it comes down to costs. US rotors are way cheaper. Most of us are aren't as attuned to the car to be able to tell 1 pound of rotating mass loss (especially considering that pound largely comes from the hats, where the moment of inertia is much smaller. A pound there is nowhere near equivalent to losing a pound in wheels, which itself isn't as substantial as losing a pound in tires)

For the rears at least, you can get the Euro E39 M5 rotors which are dimensionally identical except they're not drilled (in the US, E39 M5 and E46 M3 used the same rear rotors).




Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
The drilled is the same reasoning as the cast 19s on the CSL/ZCP, IMO-- people like how it looks :P
(pretty clearly a heavy 19 was not the optimal wheel choice for the CSL from a performance perspective)

Technically it also makes the rotors slightly lighter, as well, and the cracking is only an issue if you're exposing the rotor to track type heat.

Even where aesthetics are not a consideration, but track use is (like GT3 cup rotors), they tend to be drilled.
__________________

Last edited by terraphantm; Thu, Nov-02-2017 at 08:01:59 PM.
Jump to top terraphantm is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 06:41:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
M3Forum.com and M3forum.net is in no way sponsored, endorsed or affiliated by or with BMW NA / BMW AG or any of it's subsidiaries or vendors.
BMW and M3 (E90 M3 | E92 M3 | E93 M3 | E46 M3 | E36 M3 | E30 M3) are registered trademarks of BMW AG.
M3Forum Terms of Service
Copyright 1999-2017 M3Forum.com
Discussing Brake upgrade options in the E46 M3 (2001-2006) Forum - Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006. at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)