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E46 M3 (2001-2006) Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006.


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Old Thu, Nov-02-2017, 11:37:34 AM   #21
M3glaubiger
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Default Re: Brake upgrade options

For 1 track day a year I would not go with a BBK. As some have stated here, go the ZCP/CSL route with OEM CSL rotors and good pads + SS brake lines. For your driving profile I would go with Endless MX72 pads. Yes, they are fairly expensive but combined with the OEM rotors both parts should last a very long time.
Currently I am using CSL/ZCP rotors with Pagid RS29 pads (which are known to eat up rotors), I have done about 75 laps on the Nordschleife + 10k miles of Autobahn driving
and often braking from high speeds. I still have about 25% pads and 10% front rotors left.
For back road mountain driving, stock pads should be completely fine.
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Old Thu, Nov-02-2017, 12:07:50 PM   #22
Obioban
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Default Re: Brake upgrade options

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricSMG View Post
I don't understand how the CSL/ZCP brake setup is not an upgrade, replacement parts aside. It has more rear bias than a non-ZCP car and obviously more overall brake torque. The PFC, ECS and Genuine BMW rotors are all floaters with aluminum hats so you lose weight and cool efficiently as well.

Someone enlighten me, please, on how the ZCP setup isn't an upgrade (including rear caliper) from a purely braking performance standpoint. And once you throw in a set of PFC rotors with replaceable rings, it seems like the perfect half-step to a true BBK for less than the cost of a premium front-only BBK.
-You go from solid to drilled (downgrade for track use).
-You still have the rubber guides, so no improvement in pedal feel like a solidly mounted BBK caliper.
-Pad swaps are still like stock, vs super quick/easy with a BBK.
-Rotors are more expensive.
-Stock pad sizes, so shorter pad life that a BBK
-Stock single piston, so pads get warped with hard use and have shorter life
-nowhere near the heat capacity of proper BBK rotors, or the heat tolerance of proper BBK seals.

I'm not saying they don't have benefits over stock, just that... there's much better options out there. I agree it's half the cost of a BBK... but it feels like much less than half the benefit of a proper BBK. If you're reaching the limits of the stock system, the ZCP brakes aren't an upgrade that's going to keep you happy for long. If you're not, the stock system is fine and cheaper to run.
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Last edited by Obioban; Thu, Nov-02-2017 at 12:11:34 PM.
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Old Thu, Nov-02-2017, 02:21:40 PM   #23
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Default Re: Brake upgrade options

Isn't that mostly resolved by getting PFC ZCP rotors? I scored a set of ZCP brakes and thinking of running OEM rotors and pads for the street with PFC rotors and PFC 08 pads at the track. Also using solid bushings.
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Old Thu, Nov-02-2017, 03:09:42 PM   #24
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Default Re: Brake upgrade options

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
-You go from solid to drilled (downgrade for track use).
-You still have the rubber guides, so no improvement in pedal feel like a solidly mounted BBK caliper.
-Pad swaps are still like stock, vs super quick/easy with a BBK.
-Rotors are more expensive.
-Stock pad sizes, so shorter pad life that a BBK
-Stock single piston, so pads get warped with hard use and have shorter life
-nowhere near the heat capacity of proper BBK rotors, or the heat tolerance of proper BBK seals.

I'm not saying they don't have benefits over stock, just that... there's much better options out there. I agree it's half the cost of a BBK... but it feels like much less than half the benefit of a proper BBK. If you're reaching the limits of the stock system, the ZCP brakes aren't an upgrade that's going to keep you happy for long. If you're not, the stock system is fine and cheaper to run.
Thanks for this. That list is mostly a wear/consumable/extreme use argument. What I'm simply asking is that if you put all of that aside, is the ZCP setup not an improvement in pure braking performance (power and fade resistance)?

You loose weight, get better height dissipation, get more torque and a bit more rearward bias. These all seem like 'wins', no? It's (the full ZCP setup with PFC rotors) also more like 1/3 the cost of a FULL BBK upgrade.... it's about 2/3 the cost of just a good front Brembo setup, give or take.

What I'm getting at is that surely, for the money, it's a notable upgrade over the standard setup, all else equal, for many thousands less than a premium full BBK. Or is it not?

Edit - the cost can be reduced even further with ECS' two piece floaters. They're about ~$1300 in ZCP sizing but I don't think they've serviceable rings.
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Last edited by EricSMG; Thu, Nov-02-2017 at 03:13:55 PM.
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Old Thu, Nov-02-2017, 03:57:00 PM   #25
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Default Re: Brake upgrade options

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricSMG View Post
Thanks for this. That list is mostly a wear/consumable/extreme use argument. What I'm simply asking is that if you put all of that aside, is the ZCP setup not an improvement in pure braking performance (power and fade resistance)?

You loose weight, get better height dissipation, get more torque and a bit more rearward bias. These all seem like 'wins', no? It's (the full ZCP setup with PFC rotors) also more like 1/3 the cost of a FULL BBK upgrade.... it's about 2/3 the cost of just a good front Brembo setup, give or take.

What I'm getting at is that surely, for the money, it's a notable upgrade over the standard setup, all else equal, for many thousands less than a premium full BBK. Or is it not?

Edit - the cost can be reduced even further with ECS' two piece floaters. They're about ~$1300 in ZCP sizing but I don't think they've serviceable rings.
Front rotor weights:
euro M3 (not sure why anyone wouldn't be running this at this point): 7.5 kg
US M3: 8.17 kg
ZCP: 8.55 kg

Rear rotor weights:
euro M3: 6.8 kg (again, everyone should be running this at this point)
US M3: 7.4 kg
CSL/ZCP: 6.8 kg (it is the euro standard M3 rotor)


So, no-- ZCP brakes are heavier than the US brakes, and significantly heavier than the Euro rotors that I assume people would actually be running after the cars first set. Large diameter means the additional weight is more noticeable, too.

They do move the bias rearward, which is "good". But, so long as you're in the design parameters of the system, I don't think it matter that much-- the MK60's brake force distribution allocates braking force to whatever optimizes stopping quite effectively (which is why Porsche race cars often retrofit it). So, I don't think there's a significant benefit to stopping power (that said, the ZCP/CSL MK60 firmware load does raise the ABS intervention threshold, which does improve stopping distances).

heat capacity: until there's a non drilled option, I'd say no. Drilled rotors become cracked rotors when heated.

Most of all, though, I think the greatest benefit of a BBK is ease of pad swaps and precise pedal modulation/feel-- neither of which the CSL/ZCP setup helps with at all. Solid guides can't improve the pedal modulation/feel, but they require yearly upkeep and still only get you half way there.

Value... well, that comes down to the person doing it. I have stock brakes on the M3 wagon, and can't see any scenario in which I put CSL/ZCP brakes on it. If I need more than the stock M3 brakes are providing, ZCP/CSL isn't going to cut it either. But, for street use, the stock M3 brakes are more than enough (and half the price of ZCP/CSL to service). But, I do miss the pedal feel/modulation from my BBKed coupe pretty much every time I drive the wagon.

Overall, they just seem like a weird no mans land to me. BBK service costs, nearly stock M3 brake performance.
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Old Thu, Nov-02-2017, 04:51:24 PM   #26
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Default Re: Brake upgrade options

Excellent^^

I've considered the Euro front and ZCP rear rotor option with factory BMW pads for my street cars and it's nice to see the significant weight savings here compared to the US non-ZCP rotors.

Can we get the Euro front standard rotors?

Edit: looks like we've got a Zimmerman option which are priced the same as Genuine. Rather have the real thing.
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Last edited by EricSMG; Thu, Nov-02-2017 at 04:58:16 PM.
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Old Thu, Nov-02-2017, 04:56:03 PM   #27
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Default Re: Brake upgrade options

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricSMG View Post
Excellent^^

I've considered the Euro front and ZCP rear rotor option with factory BMW pads for my street cars and it's nice to see the significant weight savings here compared to the US non-ZCP rotors.

Can we get the Euro front standard rotors?
https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...282801802~oem/
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Old Thu, Nov-02-2017, 04:56:28 PM   #28
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Default Re: Brake upgrade options

If that link doesn't work (ecs is flakey with links), first result for 34112282801
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Old Thu, Nov-02-2017, 05:01:02 PM   #29
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Default Re: Brake upgrade options

Yes, but ships on 1/18/18. Do you think this is legitimate? Would you take the Zimmermans just as well?
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Old Thu, Nov-02-2017, 05:05:24 PM   #30
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Default Re: Brake upgrade options

I think zcp is an "upgrade" for street for looks, performance-wise on street it is probably not noticeable. For track, zcp is not the best option, based on all points made above, main ones being cross drilled cracking and heat dissipation. With some cooling ducts and aggressive pads you can get decent performance out of stock non-zcp setup.


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Discussing Brake upgrade options in the E46 M3 (2001-2006) Forum - Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006. at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)