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E46 M3 (2001-2006) Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006.


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Old Mon, Jun-17-2019, 07:28:42 PM   #191
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Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

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GAAH, yeah, def false IAT readings w/the sensor in the factory location. Why all of that work, and you haven't done an IAT relocate!? Don't bother wrapping it, just relocate it an be done w/it. Don't even bother trying to re-tune until you have your IAT's under control.
Where do you have yours relocated to?
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Engine: Karbonius CSL airbox, Lang Racing stage 2.5 head, Schrick 288/280 cams & followers, Lang Racing rod journal widening kit w/ CP 12:1 87.5mm pistons & Carrillo rods, Kassel CSL DME & MAP conversion, 36lb injectors, Hassan tuned, APE Flex fuel kit, TMS Power Pulleys, SS V1 stepped headers & catless section 1, SS 2.5” twin-piped resonated section 2, SGT scza section 3.
Drivetrain: DKM Stage 2 Clutch, E60 Shifter, RE trans mounts, Motorsport 4.10 R&P, Revshift 80A diff bushings.
Suspension/Brakes: Bilstein PSS9's, RE strut bar, RE RSM's, UUC sway bars, BW camber arms, TMS monoball RTABs, ZCP rotors, BW solid caliper guide bushings, PFC 08's, Motorsport Hardware stud kit.
Interior: Cobra Nogaro seats, alcantara headliner, BMW Performance pedals, OE alcantara boots, mason clutch pedal, Xtrons 9" headunit w/ carplay

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Old Mon, Jun-17-2019, 09:21:50 PM   #192
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Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

At 15 degrees of ignition timing I'm surprised ur car made any power at all. The ECU pulls a crap load of timing at 71c(160) that's what u'd typically see IIRC. As others have suggested move ur iat sensor into the snorkel
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Old Mon, Jun-17-2019, 09:39:35 PM   #193
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Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

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Where do you have yours relocated to?
Mine is located on the underside of my snorkel reducer...but anywhere away from major engine heat is adequate.
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Old Tue, Jun-18-2019, 02:12:24 AM   #194
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Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

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Originally Posted by stash1 View Post
Mine is located on the underside of my snorkel reducer...but anywhere away from major engine heat is adequate.


Any pics to help clarify? Did you just drill into the snorkel or is it in one of the snorkel ducts?
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Old Tue, Jun-18-2019, 04:20:52 AM   #195
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Default Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

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Originally Posted by duracellttu View Post
Any pics to help clarify? Did you just drill into the snorkel or is it in one of the snorkel ducts?


I have a 6”-4” custom reducer on the front of my airbox, and it’s installed in the circled area in this pic. I did drill a hole in it. However, like I said, the IAT can be relocated to any area that’s away from major engine heat...usually somewhere in the intake tract by the headlight area.




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Old Tue, Jun-18-2019, 06:38:31 AM   #196
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Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

Is IAT relocation worthwhile on a stock airbox'ed car? googled and found a few threads debating it, with points for (avoid heatsoak) and against (might trick engine into thinking it's getting much cooler air than it's getting) but not any hard conclusions.
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Old Tue, Jun-18-2019, 02:31:30 PM   #197
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Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

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Is IAT relocation worthwhile on a stock airbox'ed car? googled and found a few threads debating it, with points for (avoid heatsoak) and against (might trick engine into thinking it's getting much cooler air than it's getting) but not any hard conclusions.
Yes, in fact that's when most people do it since the temp sensor in the MAF itself can get hot.

Fooling the engine into thinking it's getting much cooler air is actually how some of the crappy piggy back modules work - they tell the engine it's getting impossibly cold air so it'll increase timing. Adding a sensor one foot forward in the intake tract is obviously minor in comparison, but it keeps the engine from pulling as much timing in situations like this.
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Old Tue, Jun-18-2019, 03:50:43 PM   #198
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Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

For the record, I haven’t seen real heat soak in an HFM ever. I did a lot of comparing between my stock E46 and the swap car because I had a whacky Dyno and sky high IATs. The stock car maintained IAT just above ambient while the swap cars “custom intake” saw IAT upward of 160 being open in the engine bay.

Due to this I reworked the intake, making it open in the area behind the fog light similar to the stock set up. At idle I would see mildly elevated IATs, but on the road, in any temp, when going WOT the IATs drop to just above ambient...very quickly. I’ve never seen an HFM hold heat as a reading. Watch your live values as you drive or make a log. If you have an efficient intake, you’ll see the results.

Also coolant temp and IAT both back off ignition timing as they increase at an increasing rate. I’ve seen tuners make some scary changes to the minimum ignition maps...like 26° advance regardless of IAT or coolant temps.

I don’t get why you’d trick the IAT sensor, to read fake cooler air. The motor will knock and retard timing anyway. Then if you have a high minimum ignition advance set, you’re really knocking w no safety measures at all to catch you.

Plumb the intake correctly and provide adequate air flow on the Dyno and make some safe lasting useable changes.

Graphed info here http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showt...=590501&page=6 when I went through this.
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Old Tue, Jun-18-2019, 03:53:43 PM   #199
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Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

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Originally Posted by Drewster View Post
Yes, in fact that's when most people do it since the temp sensor in the MAF itself can get hot.

Fooling the engine into thinking it's getting much cooler air is actually how some of the crappy piggy back modules work - they tell the engine it's getting impossibly cold air so it'll increase timing. Adding a sensor one foot forward in the intake tract is obviously minor in comparison, but it keeps the engine from pulling as much timing in situations like this.
Yep, just a general word of caution to the masses however w/regards to tuning...this doesn't mean that you can now run whatever timing you want. Timing and AFR's become even more critical w/this mod, and engine bay temps/heat in general should be carefully monitored and controlled if possible...especially when outside temps reach extremes. While it's rare for someone to grenade an engine, it can and does happen...especially when tunes are a little on the aggressive side and/or under race conditions.
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Old Tue, Jul-02-2019, 04:15:32 AM   #200
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Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

Wanted to update this thread as I think I may be making some headway/developments. I've been running the APE flexfuel kit for the past week and currently have an E78 mix in the tank. The car feels much stronger. BUUUUTTT I'm going to wait till I have solid data to back this up before I cling onto this feeling too much. I plan to do some data logging tomorrow if the weather holds out and see how this has had an effect of my ignition timing numbers and see if I'm consistently hitting my targets. This would back up the theory that the car was seeing real knock on the dyno and pulling massive timing because of it. Whether it was the heat or something else still don't know yet. But the main reason I wanted to bump this was because of the very lean conditions when initially applying the throttle on the dyno (low 2k's up to 4k rpms at its worst). I've definitely felt and seen this on the road since the very beginning of the build. With the APE app I've been able to play with the fueling to a certain extent in individual rpm range's. I've been using this feature to try to figure out that lean condition. I've gone as high as adding another 15% fuel on top of what it's already compensating for for the ethanol in those rpm ranges and have had little to no effect. If i gently accelerate through that rpm range it runs real rich so I know its making those changes. The more I think about it the more it strikes me as a latency issue rather than a fueling issue. Whenever in a high gear such as 3rd or higher and I accelerate from a lower rpm around 2.5k and give it generally more than 50% throttle it will go very lean (High 16's upwards of 19's AFR's) and the car will buck for a second or two and then it will normalize and AFR's come back in check. The severity of it is directly correlated with how high a gear and how much throttle is applied. It's like the car doesn't initially realize the change in air pressure. Based on this I'm starting to believe I might have a faulty MAP sensor. All the symptoms line up in the brief amount of research I've been able to do so far. So I'm going to troubleshoot this tomorrow with the help of Paul and may be ordering a new sensor. Anyone have any input or experience with faulty MAP sensors? On a side note another local car with identical mods to mine except stock internals hit the same dyno in basically the same conditions different tuner and reportedly put down 311whp so basically a wash with mine. I'd hope with my internals I'd be able to edge that one out a bit more so that tells me I think I've got more on the table once I get to the bottom of this but probably not too much. I also don't know what kind of ignition timing numbers that car was hitting but I'm going to try to find out. Another point reference the shop said their highest NA s54 record was 340whp on a $25k race motor but didn't have a whole lot of detail on it for me. Hopefully I'll have some more updates soon.
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2001 E46 M3 - Slicktop Manual Coupe - Alpine White on Imola Red

Engine: Karbonius CSL airbox, Lang Racing stage 2.5 head, Schrick 288/280 cams & followers, Lang Racing rod journal widening kit w/ CP 12:1 87.5mm pistons & Carrillo rods, Kassel CSL DME & MAP conversion, 36lb injectors, Hassan tuned, APE Flex fuel kit, TMS Power Pulleys, SS V1 stepped headers & catless section 1, SS 2.5” twin-piped resonated section 2, SGT scza section 3.
Drivetrain: DKM Stage 2 Clutch, E60 Shifter, RE trans mounts, Motorsport 4.10 R&P, Revshift 80A diff bushings.
Suspension/Brakes: Bilstein PSS9's, RE strut bar, RE RSM's, UUC sway bars, BW camber arms, TMS monoball RTABs, ZCP rotors, BW solid caliper guide bushings, PFC 08's, Motorsport Hardware stud kit.
Interior: Cobra Nogaro seats, alcantara headliner, BMW Performance pedals, OE alcantara boots, mason clutch pedal, Xtrons 9" headunit w/ carplay

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Discussing Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power? in the E46 M3 (2001-2006) Forum - Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006. at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)