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E46 M3 (2001-2006) Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006.


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Old Thu, Dec-07-2017, 03:51:12 AM   #1661
HassanEido
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Default Re: Official Dyno Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by digger View Post
It wasn't 377whp at all. It was 377 after correcting by ~20% to get to flywheel estimate
No it was at the wheels. Like i said. It take take dyno numbers at face value, but that was that
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357.7 whp 283.5 wtq

Custom exhaust thread and dyno:
http://m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=569086
Cams thread and dyno:
http://m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=554439

Custom cf airbox thread:
http://m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=595180
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Old Thu, Dec-07-2017, 04:06:54 AM   #1662
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Default Re: Official Dyno Thread

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Originally Posted by HassanEido View Post
No it was at the wheels. Like i said. It take take dyno numbers at face value, but that was that
Do you have a link to the dyno graph showing the delta between the OE section 2 and SS Section 2?
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Old Thu, Dec-07-2017, 05:53:48 AM   #1663
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Default Re: Official Dyno Thread

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Originally Posted by L0ADED View Post
Do you have a link to the dyno graph showing the delta between the OE section 2 and SS Section 2?
I do, but I'll let the people who provided the data to present them themselves. I would totally understand if they didnt since it usually becomes a sh!t show , as many ppl just wanna poke holes in whatever anyone says. I'm providing this info as advice, so take it as u will. I have my own data regarding sec1 if u want
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357.7 whp 283.5 wtq

Custom exhaust thread and dyno:
http://m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=569086
Cams thread and dyno:
http://m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=554439

Custom cf airbox thread:
http://m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=595180

Last edited by HassanEido; Thu, Dec-07-2017 at 06:16:25 AM.
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Old Thu, Dec-07-2017, 07:19:53 AM   #1664
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Default Re: Official Dyno Thread

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Originally Posted by HassanEido View Post
No it was at the wheels. Like i said. It take take dyno numbers at face value, but that was that
you are wrong

here is the graph. the "S" in S_hp means its corrected to flywheel using shootout. the factor is approx 1.20



most dynos out of europe are corrected to flywheel hp (bhp) by default its rare to see whp

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showp...&postcount=134
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Last edited by digger; Thu, Dec-07-2017 at 07:28:40 AM.
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Old Thu, Dec-07-2017, 07:59:56 AM   #1665
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Default Re: Official Dyno Thread

It's the same old story - figures can not be directly compared from one to another. At the end of the day, the delta (which I have previously posted ) is the only thing that can tell the real story.

Dynojet's (which seems to be the standard 'accepted' reading on here) show higher 'WHP' than others due to their own correction factors. FWIW, mine was 320HP 'non corrected' (16%-ish) on the dyno dynamics. I think there is a dynojet somewhere here in Scotland - if I get the opportunity, i'll drop in sometime just to please the dynojet believers
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Old Thu, Dec-07-2017, 11:36:49 AM   #1666
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Default Re: Official Dyno Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulclaude View Post
It's the same old story - figures can not be directly compared from one to another. At the end of the day, the delta (which I have previously posted ) is the only thing that can tell the real story.

Dynojet's (which seems to be the standard 'accepted' reading on here) show higher 'WHP' than others due to their own correction factors. FWIW, mine was 320HP 'non corrected' (16%-ish) on the dyno dynamics. I think there is a dynojet somewhere here in Scotland - if I get the opportunity, i'll drop in sometime just to please the dynojet believers
It'll never end lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by digger
you are wrong

here is the graph. the "S" in S_hp means its corrected to flywheel using shootout. the factor is approx 1.20
Dyno dynamics use a totally different "measuring stick". From OBSERVATION, what these cars make on a dynojet at the wheels usually translates to flywheel hp a dyno dynamics.
it's like we're all measuring lengths with sticks from different places and we wanna resolve what the notches on that stick says vs the other without a universal standard being used.
That's why I said earlier, u cannot reliably carry over these numbers from dyno to dyno so I just take them at face value( i think that's the third time i mentioned that in the couple last pages).
Having said that others like stash1, nickpiper etc. have made similar power with similar mods at the wheels using a dyno jet, which is why I mentioned paul's graph even though he's using a different dyno type(measuring stick).
Also, he recently measured his car on the virtual dyno, using dyno jet correction algorithm, and it measured at 377whp, so that's also consistent with my assumption above.
Now again, I take those numbers for what they are, not looking too much ino their absolute value as a number, rather the delta of what tuning added to that number.
I've said that time and time again. Yet, every time,some people just repeat the same things lol. funny how that works
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357.7 whp 283.5 wtq

Custom exhaust thread and dyno:
http://m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=569086
Cams thread and dyno:
http://m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=554439

Custom cf airbox thread:
http://m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=595180
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Old Thu, Dec-07-2017, 12:26:01 PM   #1667
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Default Re: Official Dyno Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by digger View Post
It wasn't 377whp at all. It was 377 after correcting by ~20% to get to flywheel estimate
Yes, pretty sure his numbers can't be compared to our standard rwhp numbers since a different scale/measuring system is used. I recall his baseline numbers not at all matching our standards for rwhp, even though his build is impressive and showed massive area under curve. So, delta is awesome but absolute number is meaningless.

Totally different scale = inadmissible in the context of rwhp

Yes/no?
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Old Thu, Dec-07-2017, 02:23:38 PM   #1668
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Default Re: Official Dyno Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricSMG View Post
Yes, pretty sure his numbers can't be compared to our standard rwhp numbers since a different scale/measuring system is used. I recall his baseline numbers not at all matching our standards for rwhp, even though his build is impressive and showed massive area under curve. So, delta is awesome but absolute number is meaningless.

Totally different scale = inadmissible in the context of rwhp

Yes/no?
Until there is a standard scale of measurement, absolute total values are meaningless and inadmissible in all cases regardless of what measuring stick (dyno) is being used. Even with a standard of measurement which on this forum seems to be most accepted as (DynoJet with SAE corrections, with ignition displayed, and with smoothing set typically to 4-5), you still can't completely compare one dyno to the next due to variables like temperature, humidity, airflow, ect not being held constant. Even comparing one DynoJet to another DynoJet will read different results. Really the only 'standard' of measurement when it comes to absolute HP numbers is the engine dyno that the manufacturer uses, which is obviously unaccessible.

I understand why as whole, the car community uses peak hp values when comparing one car to another, since you can't really compare a delta from car model A to the delta of car model B, but when comparing the same car, we should be asking what the delta is (ex: "Has anyone breached a delta of XXX over baseline yet with this car?" That seems to make the most sense. Other than that, as Hassan and Paul have repeatedly said, the absolute value is pretty much meaningless. We as a community, need to break that habit considering the question itself is flawed and assumes a false premise. The delta should be consistent across all dynos, unless I am mistaken? Asking if 400whp has been met with this car doesn't really make sense unless you are on the manufacturer's engine dyno. Unless that is the case, the answer will always be, it depends on the dyno that is being used. Even one DynoJet to another is calibrated differently and thus will read slightly different numbers. Just changing how the car is strapped down to a single dyno is enough to alter the the numbers being read. With all of this in mind, I have a hard time reconciling absolute numbers and so should everyone else. If we are not talking deltas, then it's really a meaningless conversation.

If I am mistaken, then let me know.
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Old Thu, Dec-07-2017, 02:55:13 PM   #1669
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Default Re: Official Dyno Thread

Really, it's the percent delta that matters-- not the absolute.

E.g. if one dyno reads a car at 200whp stock and another reads the same car at 300whp stock, a 25% power gain will result in 250rwhp on the first dyno and 375whp on the second-- 50whp gained vs 75whp gained, even though both are only a 25% gain.

But, it's not even really that simple, as peak numbers aren't that meaningful-- really, it's area under the curve. So, we need to take the derivative of curve before/after, and compare the percent gains.

But it's not actually that simple, either, as you only really need to care about the area under the curve that's relevant to how you use the car.

Which clearly will never happen. Which is how we end up where we are
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Old Thu, Dec-07-2017, 03:06:52 PM   #1670
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Default Re: Official Dyno Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr M3an M3 View Post
Until there is a standard scale of measurement, absolute total values are meaningless and inadmissible in all cases regardless of what measuring stick (dyno) is being used. Even with a standard of measurement which on this forum seems to be most accepted as (DynoJet with SAE corrections, with ignition displayed, and with smoothing set typically to 4-5), you still can't completely compare one dyno to the next due to variables like temperature, humidity, airflow, ect not being held constant. Even comparing one DynoJet to another DynoJet will read different results. Really the only 'standard' of measurement when it comes to absolute HP numbers is the engine dyno that the manufacturer uses, which is obviously unaccessible.

I understand why as whole, the car community uses peak hp values when comparing one car to another, since you can't really compare a delta from car model A to the delta of car model B, but when comparing the same car, we should be asking what the delta is (ex: "Has anyone breached a delta of XXX over baseline yet with this car?" That seems to make the most sense. Other than that, as Hassan and Paul have repeatedly said, the absolute value is pretty much meaningless. We as a community, need to break that habit considering the question itself is flawed and assumes a false premise. The delta should be consistent across all dynos, unless I am mistaken? Asking if 400whp has been met with this car doesn't really make sense unless you are on the manufacturer's engine dyno. Unless that is the case, the answer will always be, it depends on the dyno that is being used. Even one DynoJet to another is calibrated differently and thus will read slightly different numbers. Just changing how the car is strapped down to a single dyno is enough to alter the the numbers being read. With all of this in mind, I have a hard time reconciling absolute numbers and so should everyone else. If we are not talking deltas, then it's really a meaningless conversation.

If I am mistaken, then let me know.
I agree on all accounts if we want to compare our cars to the factory dyno, but it's never going to happen so it's a moot point. Too many variables to account for and short of having a controlled environment and a standardized process is practiced for running the dyno, no two dyno graphs between cars will ever be comparable.

Individuals can do controlled experiments for individual cars provided they want to go through the scrutiny of eliminating as much variability as possible when modifying and dynoing. And while results will vary, the delta from baseline to present of each individual case should provide a general idea of how much power can be achieved in these motors. I may be mistaken, but hasn't there have been members here that have done the due dilligence to the best of their ability of cataloging baselines (stock) and redyno with each new modification?

We can get into the semantics of it and get way down in the weeds on just how much variability is present but at the end of the day, does it really matter? Aside from bragging rights (maybe) on an internet forum, what purpose in the real world will extracting the most naturally aspirated HP from a S54 serve? It's all for fun IMO.
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Discussing Official Dyno Thread in the E46 M3 (2001-2006) Forum - Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006. at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)