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View Poll Results: Legalize lanespliting?
Yes 19 39.58%
No 29 60.42%
Voters: 48. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Sat, Jul-21-2018, 12:12:19 AM   #201
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Default Re: Should motorcycles be allowed to lanesplit?

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Originally Posted by Serious View Post
This is why this argument is different for riders vs car drivers. Any motorcyclist knows you usually have the agility to maneuver out of the way of a car doing something dumb in front of you. When youíre stopped with no rear visibility youíre at complete mercy to that idiot driver.
1. I've already given that at an intersection it's a clear safety issue. By all means, stop between the cars.

2. There's no way any human being can react fast enough if you're lane-splitting 30 MPH faster than the surrounding traffic and someone moves. No way. And "maneuver out of the way." To where exactly? If you're lane-splitting in the first place it's because traffic is thick and you're nowhere close to either shoulder.

Enjoy your bike all you want. It's great you get such pleasure from it. Lane-splitting is dumb.


Now, can we discuss something civilized like gun control or something? Is SMG an automatic? Does it even belong in a performance car.
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Old Sat, Jul-21-2018, 12:19:24 AM   #202
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Default Re: Should motorcycles be allowed to lanesplit?

30mph? Who said 30mph? Speed delta is maybe 15-20mph. A 400lb bike with 2 huge front rotors, sticky tires, ABS, and a rider with a bunch of track experience can haul that down in a pretty damn small space.

Also you can maneuver into the space the car/truck just voided.

It’s really not that challenging once you’re experienced doing it. Could the planets align and you get wiped out? Yeah could happen but still it’s a 15-20mph collision where you tipover. It’s not writing pancakes between 2 4000+lb vehicles.
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Old Sat, Jul-21-2018, 12:29:04 AM   #203
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Default Re: Should motorcycles be allowed to lanesplit?

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I'm drawing the obvious conclusion. Considering there is only 1 state where it's legal, the onus is on you to make the case that it reduces the number of accidents (aka makes things safer). That study isn't even close. You don't seem to understand that the study is of the consequences of a lane splitting accident vs. a rear ending accident. The point was not that lane splitting increases safety, but that a lane splitting accident is slightly less likely to end in a fatality or violent injury. You're cherry picking it to suggest that lane splitting is safer overall.
From the discussion section of the UC Berkeley Research Document:

"Lane-splitting is legal and is widely practiced by motorcyclists in California. Of the almost 6,000 collision-involved motorcyclists we studied, nearly 1,000 were lane-splitting at the time of their collision. When we compared motorcyclists who were lane-splitting with those who were not, we could see that the lane-splitting riders were notably different. Compared with other motorcyclists, lane-splitting motorcyclists were more often riding on weekdays and during commute hours, were using better helmets, and were traveling at lower speeds. Lane-splitting riders were also less likely to have been using alcohol and less likely to have been carrying a passenger. Lane-splitting motorcyclists were much less often injured during their collisions. They were considerably less likely to suffer head injury, torso injury, extremity injury, and fatal injury than riders who were not lane-splitting."

"For head injury occurrence, the trend is different from what is observed in non-lane-splitting collisions. During lane-splitting collisions, head injury occurrence is low at all motorcycle speeds up to 50 MPH (6.6% on average) and increases markedly above 50 MPH (16.7% on average)."

Meaning it's appears better to get in a low speed accident splitting than not.

"It is in high-speed environments where lane-splitting has the lowest benefit to the motorcyclist, and high-speed lane-splitting could be reduced or eliminated from California roadways without significant loss of the overall potential benefits of lane-splitting, which include reductions in fuel consumption, emissions, and traffic congestion."

"Many riders advocate for speed differentials of 10, 15, or 20 MPH. Our findings suggest that riders who adopt a 10 or 15 MPH speed differential practice may reduce their exposure to injury risk."

Basically don't speed while you split and there is a certain safety benefit.

"While our study data cannot be used to estimate the risk of actually being involved in a collision, an informal examination of a few dozen lane-splitting collisions revealed an overwhelming trend of lane-splitting collisions resulting from a motorcyclist lane-splitting at a high speed differential."

So of your quoted numbers, the trend appears to be people who were not observing their speed differential tend to be involved in accidents while splitting, with even those who were experiencing less severe injuries. It was also worth noting that of the 6,000 observed incidents (1,000 occurring while lane splitting) 20% were said to be unlicensed for a motorcycle.
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Old Sat, Jul-21-2018, 12:33:42 AM   #204
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Default Re: Should motorcycles be allowed to lanesplit?

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30mph? Who said 30mph? Speed delta is maybe 15-20mph. A 400lb bike with 2 huge front rotors, sticky tires, ABS, and a rider with a bunch of track experience can haul that down in a pretty damn small space.

Also you can maneuver into the space the car/truck just voided.

Itís really not that challenging once youíre experienced doing it. Could the planets align and you get wiped out? Yeah could happen but still itís a 15-20mph collision where you tipover. Itís not writing pancakes between 2 4000+lb vehicles.
I did, from personal daily experience. It's naive to think everyone is following the guidelines. BTW, I keep reading the guidelines say 15 mph, CHP says it should be 10 yet the CHP is one of the worst offenders.
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Old Sat, Jul-21-2018, 01:05:53 AM   #205
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Default Re: Should motorcycles be allowed to lanesplit?

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Okay so that paper basically explores and answers the questions regarding the type and severity of accidents in lane splitting vs not, and the proporiton of accidents that can be attributed to lane splitting vs not. What that paper does not explore or answer is the change in accident rates, injury rate, or fatality rate that occurred before and after lane splitting was made legal.

You (and others ) are taking that paper as conclusively proving that lane splitting is safer than not lane splitting, but there's no data to make a conclusion one way or another. It very well could be that the absolute rate of rear end and other collisions did not change and that lane-splitting simply contributed additional collisions on top of the baseline.

Furthermore, you and Serious are making the faulty assumption that a rear-end collision is a guarantee while a lane-change collision is an impossibility. And I understand that as a rider you have more control over the latter because you can see and anticipate what's going to happen. However as a driver, it's the opposite. I can see what's in front of me and anticipate when to stop. I cannot always see or hear a motor cycle coming behind me in between lanes. I have never changed lanes into a motorcycle (or rear ended one for that matter), but there have definitely been times where I was caught by surprise by a motorcycle flying by me in conditions that did not IMO warrant lane splitting.
While that particular paper did not compare the change in overall accidents occurring, it has been observed that California has a 30% lower rate of rear end collisions when compared to states like Texas (where it is not legal). However, the point made is that the accidents occurring while lane splitting were less severe than those that were not. Which, would still advocate that it can be a safer situation, with the exceptions being those who travel much faster than the surrounding traffic. Additionally, the other benefits of lane splitting are the ease in traffic congestion and the lower emission footprint of a motorcycle being used for commutes.

I do not recall saying it was an impossibility to have an accident occurs while an automobile changes lanes, I argued as you stated, that you have more potential to control the situation ahead of you rather than behind. Additionally, as you mentioned, your moments of being caught by surprise were by those who were splitting beyond what is recommended, or in an instance where it was not warranted. That is not an indicator of legalized lane splitting is like.

Again, I am around it almost everyday living in the Bay Area. I don't seem to observe this "death parade" that everyone keeps saying occurs when splitting is legalized or performed in general. What I do see is plenty of people who enjoy their motorcycle and benefit from a shorter commute time, and are one less car on the road in front of me.
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Old Sat, Jul-21-2018, 01:07:48 AM   #206
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Default Re: Should motorcycles be allowed to lanesplit?

I have no problem with lane splitting as long as it's done no more 10 mph over the flow of traffic.
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Old Sat, Jul-21-2018, 01:14:32 AM   #207
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Default Re: Should motorcycles be allowed to lanesplit?

I honestly don't have any issue with it in NYC or LA because those cities are huge and I don't live there. It probably has its place but I don't think it's necessary in all metro areas or states.
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Old Sat, Jul-21-2018, 03:41:26 AM   #208
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Default Re: Should motorcycles be allowed to lanesplit?

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Originally Posted by terraphantm View Post
Can't compare California and Texas without controlling for everything else. In fact, even when counting *all* traffic collisions, California has a bit more than 30% fewer deaths per mile and per person compared to Texas: http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/ge...state-overview

And in fact, motorcycle collisions make up 13% of accidents in Texas while they're 15% in California. So that would suggest that at best you're looking at parity before and after lane splitting with maybe a slight benefit to keeping lane splitting illegal. A study within a state or country in say... the 5-year time frame before and after a legality change would be a better designed study.

I frankly couldn't care less about the so-called benefits when it comes to congestion and pollution. Motorcyclists are a tiny portion of the driving population and just don't have enough numbers to make a difference there. Making lane splitting legal won't change that.

No one is saying there's a death parade. But I think the safety benefits are greatly exaggerated if they exist at all, and making lane splitting legal would shift a big burden to car drivers. If the laws were such that automobile drivers had zero liability in lane change collisions with motorcyclists, then fine whatever, the burden is on you guys.

I also think it's naive to assume that if lane splitting were made legal, everyone would practice it safely. Motorcycle drivers are already less risk averse than most of us, and the young ones in particular tend to be asshats on the road. I think the frequency of dangerous lane splitting would increase if lane splitting were made legal and encouraged.
A two percent difference in the overall number of motorcycles accidents as a whole doesn't negate the 30% difference in rear-end collisions.

Is it really that hard to look over your shoulder and check a mirror alongside using your signal when you change lanes? If that is too difficult or "puts an unwanted burden" on you while you're driving please get off of the road. There are no extra precautions needed when changing lanes for a motorcycle over a car. You guys keep saying you want "zero liability". Do you have these same problems exiting a parking space next to a bike lane? Should a cyclist happen to hit you in that situation they should be at fault? Filtering and lane splitting isn't some highwire balancing act. Take spin on a motorcycle and you'll see how ridiculous some of these notions are.
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Old Sat, Jul-21-2018, 01:51:44 PM   #209
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Default Re: Should motorcycles be allowed to lanesplit?

Bro you ever been to Texas? 3/4 of the riders there don’t even wear helmets.
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Old Sat, Jul-21-2018, 03:27:01 PM   #210
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Default Re: Should motorcycles be allowed to lanesplit?

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Do you not get the math? Texas has 30% more fatalities per mile and per-person period. If we accept that you reduced rear-end collisions by 30% but your overall proportion of fatalities are still the same or even increased, then you haven't exactly accomplished much. Either rear-end collisions aren't a big factor in fatalities or the new accidents from splitting are killing bikers at about the same rate. Either way, doesn't make for a great argument for making splitting legal.

I check my mirrors every time. Looking over the shoulder not so much, largely because it's unnecessary if you have your mirrors setup properly. But it is fact that motorcycles have a much smaller profile, so they're going to be difficult to spot. The other problem is that if I make a mistake and start changing lanes without seeing the bike: If they're splitting, I'm pretty much guaranteed to hit them. If they're in their own lane, then both I and the bike have much more time to realize the mistake and react appropriately. And hell, there might be situations where I'm not even trying to change lanes, but I maneuver within my own lane to avoid debris or something. With splitting being explicitly illegal, I don't have to worry about not having space to maneuver within my own lane.

Exiting a parking space is different because I'm at a stop and am waiting for my turn to join traffic. But I shouldn't have to worry about asshats splitting while traffic is moving at 80mph.

And sure, if a cyclist gets hit while splitting lanes, I say they should be at fault. If you want to be on the road, follow the same rules as everyone else. A car that gets hit while splitting lanes would certainly be considered at fault.
Fatalities per mile has a number of influencing factors and isn't a picture of accidents as a whole. I am saying that when looking at all occurrences of a motorcycle accidents, California has 30% less rear-end collisions.

I'm not sure how much experience you have in California traffic where lane splitting occurs, but while Motorcycles do have a smaller profile, they're often no more difficult to see than a low Miata. You are also saying "I shouldn't have to worry about asshats splitting while traffic is moving at 80mph". Which, is not what legalized lane splitting is. That's reckless riders. Sort of like how I shouldn't have to worry about cars speeding past when traffic moves that pace, or getting hit by mobile phone users behind the wheel. Those are all people not obeying the law. People who did it lawfully would not be zipping past like Tron bikes, and if you use your indicator, would have plenty of time to react appropriately. Will accidents always occur? Of course. This isn't some magical solution to motorcycle accidents. It's reducing rear-end collision risk, less traffic, and more convenience for both riders and cars.
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