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Old Wed, May-16-2018, 11:55:46 AM   #31
terraphantm
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Default Re: problem with dme shut down after s54 swap...need help!!!!

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Originally Posted by geargrndr View Post
Yeah, who knows... I found it very odd they used the dedicated CAN-bus. Seemed like maybe an engineering bandaid/shortcut... maybe like "OK we gotta get this SULEV model out the door by next January, we don't have time to do all the work to ensure the EKPM runs properly and safely on the primary CAN-bus... so, just wire it up by itself... we can call the same CAN libraries for the comms but point them at a different network". Maybe it was taking too much bus time and they were worried about bus-collisions interfering with safety (i.e. ABS/traction) messages?

With this swap, one of the shop guys asked me "so there's gotta be a way to make that relay (aka EKPM) work with this, right?" Ha!

Although if you had to, I know there are some CAN-CAN gateway projects out there, that'd probably be the way to do it... Build your own interface that sniffs existing CAN packets, makes a generous estimate of the required duty-cycle, and sends the message on to the relay. Errr on the side of high, because obviously its really fine for the pump to run all the time, its' just tiny amounts of extra vapor emissions this is all about.

But since MSS5x has direct fuel "relay" logic and a PWM output on-board, that's purely a theoretical discussion, it'd be pointless...
Could probably do it with the MSS70 if one really wanted, since that uses a similar fuel pump setup. But yeah, not much point to doing that


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Originally Posted by nextelbuddy1 View Post
I'm interested to hear more about this switch for the DME to look for the DSC 5.7 system. I myself swap in the s54 cluster and DME into a 2000 wagon that has the mk20 system or maybe 5.7 I don't know. the DMV in cluster came from an M3 that had MK 60 originally.

I'm hoping that the switch you are talking about well resolve the DSC light in the cluster.

Is there a hex address and a value that I can look up and change?
The switch is unlikely to be your problem since only the AWD E46s got the 5.7 system.

If you already did the steering angle calibration thing, then the problem is probably instrument cluster coding. There was a change there between the MK60 and older setups.
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Old Wed, May-16-2018, 04:21:46 PM   #32
Apps
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Default Re: problem with dme shut down after s54 swap...need help!!!!

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Originally Posted by terraphantm View Post
MSS54 is basically an MSS52, and the E39 M5 comes with both the PWM relay and the DSC 5.7 system. There is a switch to change the DME to look for a Bosch DSC instead of a Teves/Contintental system, though I'm not sure that's enough to cause the DME to stay awake. But it certainly does seem like that the DSC 5.7 system is the culprit in both cases (E46 AWD uses a variant of the DSC 5.7)

If you haven't already done so, I'd try flipping the chassis type byte to E39 (change the values 0x6 and 0x4006/0x8006 to 0x10 - default will be 0x20) and the DSC type to 5.7 (I don't know the byte for that off hand)

Edit: Actually now that I think about it, another thing that might be causing an issue is that the MSS52 and MSS54 have terminal resistors built into the DMEs, while the other BMW DMEs do not (the terminal resistors are typically located in the DSC and IKE/KMB modules in other BMWs). Perhaps the Bosch DSC system (or some other E39 module) is sensitive to the CAN-bus resistance dropping to a value below spec? On the E39, easiest way to eliminate one of the resistors would be to remove the wire connecting Pin 24 and pin 11 on the blue connector of the instrument cluster (it should be a loop of wire connecting both pins together)

That loop of wire basically connects a 120Ω resistor between the high/low busses. WDS says E39 diesels didn't come with that connection (perhaps diesel DDEs also had built in resistors), and I suspect M5s didn't also since BMW tends to forget to document some of the M-quirks.
I'll look for this loop in my cluster (does it matter low or high cluster? - I have low - 2000 528i) tonight. How about at the DSC? Would there be another resistor here? Is there a way to find it and remove it as in the IKE?

Assuming M5's didn't have the resistor at the IKE/Kombi did they also have a different Bosch 5.7 DSC module as well (i.e. minus the resistor?)

I have already changed K_DSC_TYP to fit the Bosch 5.7 unit rather than the Teves. I'll flip the chassis byte later this week to see if that helps also.

Thanks for the help Terra
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Old Wed, May-16-2018, 04:37:11 PM   #33
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Default Re: problem with dme shut down after s54 swap...need help!!!!

M5 has the same DSC module as the other E39s, just coded differently. As far as I'm aware, DSC modules always have one of the terminal resistors. In the DSC module's case, said resistor is internal - you'd have to cut it open to remove it.

E39 low cluster has the loop going to pins 11 and 13 on the white connector.

MSS5x DME has resistors soldered on board.
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Old Wed, May-16-2018, 04:49:03 PM   #34
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Default Re: problem with dme shut down after s54 swap...need help!!!!

Ok if I understand correctly then removing the loop should correct the issue - if resistance is the real issue. I'll do that tonight and report back.

What parameters / functions do you expect to change by changing the chassis byte?
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Old Wed, May-16-2018, 04:51:05 PM   #35
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Default Re: problem with dme shut down after s54 swap...need help!!!!

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Ok if I understand correctly then removing the loop should correct the issue - if resistance is the real issue. I'll do that tonight and report back.

What parameters / functions do you expect to change by changing the chassis byte?
Yeah, if resistance is the issue (certainly plausible, though does make me wonder why none of the various S62 swaps have seen similar issues), pulling the loop should take care of it.

Honestly, not sure. Never really looked that deep into what the chassis byte changes.
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Old Wed, May-16-2018, 05:01:45 PM   #36
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Default Re: problem with dme shut down after s54 swap...need help!!!!

I agree about the s62 swaps...I had basically followed their instructions considering mss54 and mss52 are mostly the same. If this doesn't do the trick then perhaps there is some other parameter in the dme that isn't set correctly.

I would think a comparison of mss52 vs mss54 parameters might find that out...but I'm trying to avoid that.

If it's not a dme parameter these swaps should be identical from an electronics perspective if I'm not mistaken.
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Old Wed, May-16-2018, 05:08:38 PM   #37
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Default Re: problem with dme shut down after s54 swap...need help!!!!

There is a prototype MSS52 software variant included in the E39 daten files that's actually tuned for an S54. If the resistor and chassis byte don't do the trick, could try flashing that software to your MSS54 (would require BDM though)
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Old Thu, May-17-2018, 12:22:31 AM   #38
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Default Re: problem with dme shut down after s54 swap...need help!!!!

Alright, so I pulled the jumper between pin 11 and pin 13 on the white connector (low cluster). Turned key to on and 5 sec later to off...then waited 5 min...dbw was still active (moved the throttle bodies) and I never heard the relay switch off.

So it seems unless I'm not waiting long enough it didn't work. I will try to change the chassis byte on Friday and also sniff the CAN messages to see if I can find out what is being sent.

...Bummer I was really hoping that would be it!
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Old Thu, May-17-2018, 01:05:50 AM   #39
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Default Re: problem with dme shut down after s54 swap...need help!!!!

It should turn off within like 10 seconds max, so yeah something is off. Strange to me that the CAN-bus can keep it awake. Chassis byte will hopefully do the trick. Otherwise we might have to get you on the MSS52 software (and frankly even that's not guaranteed to work).
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Old Fri, May-18-2018, 05:44:01 PM   #40
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Default Re: problem with dme shut down after s54 swap...need help!!!!

Yup that's what I figured...and what I experience when I disconnect CAN high/low from the DME. Changed chassis byte over today with no change...then just for fun changed over DSC byte back to Teves...again no change.

Unplug the ABS/DSC module and it shuts down properly...

Will CAN communication still function with abs/dsc disconnected? Does CAN need the whole loop intact or can the Kombi and DME still communicate with DSC/ABS disconnected?

Tonight I'll try to diagnose this by disconnecting and checking for valid results at the Kombi on coolant/speed/rpm and also I'll measure the resistance across the CAN to make sure it's 60ohm (as specified in WDS) with the Kombi jumper removed (I haven't put it back in).
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Discussing problem with dme shut down after s54 swap...need help!!!! in the Coding and Tuning Forum - Discuss all avenues of coding and tuning here! at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)