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E46 M3 (2001-2006) Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006.


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Old Wed, Mar-14-2018, 05:54:30 AM   #931
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Default Re: Streamline & Dr M3an M3's CSL Airbox Development Journal Collaboration

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Yellowing of carbon fiber derives from the clear coat that is used. Even Porsche owners start complaining that their carbon fiber starts to yellow and companies have spent a lot of money researching a clear bra that does not yellow.
Technically not true.

Basically as a general rule the clearer the epoxy used the less heat resistant properties it has, the more yellow the epoxy the higher the heat resistance property it has, but I am sure Anthony can chime in more.

All carbon yellow, even Die Wethje made item ..... heck ever seen an exhaust blown floor on a F1 car when it was still allowed - the yellowing of F1 grade carbon fiber make it seem like it’s some cheap China made item. If you want carbon that does not yellow, cover it in carbon ceramic tiles like Renault is doing with their blown exhaust rear wing lower plane.

Exhaust blown floor of a F1 car.
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Old Wed, Mar-14-2018, 05:56:20 AM   #932
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Default Re: Streamline & Dr M3an M3's CSL Airbox Development Journal Collaboration

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Technically not true.

Basically as a general rule the clearer the epoxy used the less heat resistant properties it has, the more yellow the epoxy the higher the heat resistance property it has, but I am sure Anthony can chime in more.

All carbon yellow, even Die Wethje made item ..... heck ever seen an exhaust blown floor on a F1 car when it was still allowed - the yellowing of F1 grade carbon fiber make it seem like it’s some cheap China made item. If you want carbon that does not yellow, cover it carbon ceramic tiles like Renault is doing with their blown exhaust rear wing lower plane.

Exhaust blown floor of a F1 car.
My point being that carbon fiber yellows. So thanks.

And a general rule of thumb does not mean your statement is true, technically.
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Old Wed, Mar-14-2018, 11:11:47 AM   #933
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Default Re: Streamline & Dr M3an M3's CSL Airbox Development Journal Collaboration

With BMW's CF roofs yellowing these days (e9X M3), imo there's no stopping it-- just altering the degree to which it occurs.

If/when the roof on my M3 yellows, I'll paint it.

With the airbox, I don't really care if it turns yellow-- doesn't change the sound. That said, thus far on my Die Wethje airbox I can't notice any yellowing.
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Old Wed, Mar-14-2018, 02:36:02 PM   #934
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Default Re: Streamline & Dr M3an M3's CSL Airbox Development Journal Collaboration

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With the airbox, I don't really care if it turns yellow-- doesn't change the sound. That said, thus far on my Die Wethje airbox I can't notice any yellowing.
My airbox just had it's 6th birthday recently, and has no discernible yellowing either...thinking some of it may be at least partially related to long term heat exposure (high underhood temps), and of course as mentioned...the differences in the clear coat being used. I've done a lot in the way to manage/control underhood temps and I def think it's paid off in a few ways...this being one of them.
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Old Wed, Mar-14-2018, 02:51:36 PM   #935
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Default Re: Streamline & Dr M3an M3's CSL Airbox Development Journal Collaboration

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My airbox just had it's 6th birthday recently, and has no discernible yellowing either...thinking some of it may be at least partially related to long term heat exposure (high underhood temps), and of course as mentioned...the differences in the clear coat being used. I've done a lot in the way to manage/control underhood temps and I def think it's paid off in a few ways...this being one of them.
Mine is 14 years old, and unyellowed
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Old Wed, Mar-14-2018, 03:04:29 PM   #936
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Default Re: Streamline & Dr M3an M3's CSL Airbox Development Journal Collaboration

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Mine is 14 years old, and unyellowed
Wow, didn't realize you've had an airbox for that long...seems like yesterday I remember you installing one & posting up a video or something. Must be the alzheimers?
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Old Wed, Mar-14-2018, 03:11:36 PM   #937
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Default Re: Streamline & Dr M3an M3's CSL Airbox Development Journal Collaboration

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Wow, didn't realize you've had an airbox for that long...seems like yesterday I remember you installing one & posting up a video or something. Must be the alzheimers?
I wasn't the original owner of this Die Wethje airbox.

It was Evolve's development/basis box when they were developing theirs.

I only know how old it is because of the sticker within:

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Old Wed, Mar-14-2018, 08:28:06 PM   #938
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Default Re: Streamline & Dr M3an M3's CSL Airbox Development Journal Collaboration

May I give my 2 cents about yellowing, I have commented on it before, but its somewhere down the pages.

Everyone here is partially correct about yellowing, but not fully.

There are a couple of reasons for yellowing really.

1. Vynil-Ester Resin


Many producers use Vynil-Ester Resin instead of Epoxy resin. That resin is the middle-ground between polyester and epoxy. We have even seen prepreg carbon been sold, with vynil-ester on it. Problems with vynil ester is that it starts to change color over time, creating a yellow fog over the item - and many of the AUDI items do seem as if they are made wtih vynil-ester, not epoxy resin. That is what I have seen, I have NOT owned an audi and I have NOT tested the resin compound, but it just seems that way!

2. Using "Pre-Preg"


The reason why I posted on this thread the carbon fiber we recieved and its certification is because that is VERY important. I am as transparent as I can that way, I don't make blunt statements saying "WE USE THE BEST THERE IS, BUT WE CAN'T SHOW YOU" - I prefer to show it to you guys. Ofcourse I cannot show everything all the time, but what I can - I show! So anyway, many companies buy PRE-PREG carbon fiber, which is already on the market prepregnated from factory. IF you ask these producers, they have no idea what epoxy is used in that carbon fiber, and what hardener is used for that epoxy to cure. In short, when you recieve epoxy resin, you need to mix it with a hardener and possibly 3-4 other chemicals at certain proportions to get what you are looking for - that is with the highest grade resins ofcourse, lower grades are just mixed with a hardener and you don't need to have the proportion exactly right - hence why they are inferior and certain qualities cannot be guaranteed. Some of these chemicals, especially the hardeners are often YELLOW. Hardeners are usually either yellow or blue. That has not mutch to do with the temperature capabilities, and more to do with other characteristics which not many companies want to share with us. For example, the 3M structural aero resin is blue-ish-green. Hexion's structural resin has a yellowish color hardener. 3M has a blu-ish fast curing resin which cannot withstand high temps, but also has a resin which has a blueish hardener and can withstand over 700 degrees celcius. So carbon going slightly yellow is mostly a function of the resin hardener, which begins to yellow over time. Resins using blue hardener, will not yellow over time. This is a reason why we bought Aero-Grade Carbon fiber for Prepregnating and bought epoxy separately so we know EXACTLY what goes into our products.

3. Clear-Coating

That is another one. Bad clearcoat can make an item yellow over time. If you use cheap-materials which cannot handle UV-light they can start to yellow over time for sure. Also clear-coats which have a lot of diluent in them, usually yellow. I want to point out that NO Clear-coat comes diluted from factory. People buy diluents separately so they can waste less material when clear-coating. We do not use diluents, and we clear-coat every item 5-6 times with UV-protective high-quality MaxMayer or Du-Pont clearcoat. Not only that, but we do so in a hermetized cell with an airstreem going outwards (so that even if the door opens, no dust particles can enter, which may give white-ish or yellowish microscopic spots under the clearcoat). If you are interested in the exac clear-coat names from these producers, I can post them up later.

4. Influenced Carbon Fiber...

Real carbon fiber is certified. Real carbon fiber is basically graphite which is made into a weave - back to my post about the carbon I posted with the certifications when we got it. However a lot of the carbon fiber on the market is not real carbon fiber. As an example, there is NO SUCH THING as Red Carbon FIber... Simply the RED cannot be carbon composite. It can be kevlar, and it can be glass-weaves.. but not carbon. I have shown a couple of posts back a red/black material - and that is not pure carbon fiber. Many producers, in order to save up on costs, or increase a certain characteristic of the composite, put other particles in their carbon. That doesn't mean always that the carbon is bad... they may put kevlar or fiberglass or many other synthetic minerals, even things like stone (google RockWool), and in China, even Nylon.... Because we don't know what exactly extra is put in there we don't know if the quality of the carbon is enhanced or reduced... butt exactly these nisches, or weaves start to change color over time. That could be exactly what is going on in F1 cars, as the carbon there is made for specific structural qualities, and looks do not matter. Many of the OEM carbons are actually influenced with Fiberglass. It is why its called CFRP... you do not have a CFRP chassis, you have a carbon fiber chassis construction. CFRP is basically a mesh of carbon fiber and FRP, where the bottom layers are made from Glass Prepreg Weave and the top layers from carbon fiber. And because the Carbon Fiber alone, will not enhance the structural quality of the item, the carbon is usually meshed in with other materials to enhance its strength. (as I have written in the csl bumper thread, research shows that carbon is stiffer, but not stronger per unit of area, than fiberglass type E or S).

5. Natural Aging - WRONG

There is this concept that the natural aging of carbon is causing it to yellow... well the tips of your pencils never go yellow do they - so how can carbon fiber go yellow? Also get a yellow highliter and try to scribble something on a carbon item... you will barely see the yellow. So that means that severe yellowing comes from reasons 4 and 1, and slight yelowing from 2 and 3.

I hope this cleared things up a bit.

Also it seems that our trumpet designs and imrpovements have been picked up by others already. A lucky bunch you guys are :P. The E46 M3 platform will be getting some cool items .

In a couple of days Leight will post an update on the item - specifically a finished trumpet and hopefully a lacqueered box. I am in here for the more technical bits.

Wish you all the best.
- Antony

Last edited by Bubblegunz; Wed, Mar-14-2018 at 09:30:29 PM.
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Old Wed, Mar-14-2018, 09:14:54 PM   #939
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Default Re: Streamline & Dr M3an M3's CSL Airbox Development Journal Collaboration

Love watching this air box come to life.
Got to say you guys putting this together are the real deal.
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Old Mon, Mar-19-2018, 02:18:19 PM   #940
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Default Re: Streamline & Dr M3an M3's CSL Airbox Development Journal Collaboration

Sorry if I missed this, but has a tentative timeline been set as to when Antony and Streamline plans on completing everything?

- Prototype Complete?
- Installation & Testing?
- Finalizing Production Model?
- Group Buy Officially Opens? (Money collected)
- First Production Run Starts?
- First Shipments Going out the Door?
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Discussing Streamline & Dr M3an M3's CSL Airbox Development Journal Collaboration in the E46 M3 (2001-2006) Forum - Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006. at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)