BMW M3 Forum
BMW M3 Forum BMW M3 Gallery BMW M3 Reviews BMW M3 Social Groups BMW M3 Chat M3Forum Sponsors >>
Loading


Mobile M3forum
Go Back   BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X) > BMW M3 Discussions > E46 M3 (2001-2006)
Tire Rack Buy Winter Tires Now!
Not a member? Register Now!
Register Gallery All Albums Garage Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Calendar FAQ

E46 M3 (2001-2006) Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old Thu, Dec-19-2019, 07:23:24 PM   #1
sapote
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 932
Reputation: 0 sapote is on a distinguished road

United States




Default VANOS adaptation question

Is it true the vanos adaptation can take care for vanos timing setting error up to +/- 8 deg? If yes then how does the adaptation deal with this case: with IN piston touching the cap and the cam is set at 57 deg retarded instead of the correct 60 deg? To get the cam to 60 deg retarded the piston needs to move forward further but it is already hits the cap.
Jump to top sapote is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Register now and remove these ads
Old Thu, Dec-19-2019, 08:12:57 PM   #2
paulclaude
Registered User
 
paulclaude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 435
Reputation: 0 paulclaude is on a distinguished road

Scotland




Default Re: VANOS adaptation question

Yes, it is true - did you did not believe me the first time?

The vanos adaptation simply allows an ECU offset for mechanical timing error. It doesn't physically move the camshaft, so being hard against the end caps will make no difference. Due to mechanical tolerances and imperfect installation work, it's difficult to time the camshafts perfectly every time. So the adaptation values are there to correct for this difference.

On a standalone ecu for comparison, camshaft synchronization would be carried out manually based on the cam sensor readings. On MSS54, adaptations are present to adjust for any difference.
__________________
2005 E46 M3 #Ringtool - Self Tuned - SSV2/2.5" SS Sect2/SS LWR - Schrick 288/280 - AEM Infinity - Karbonius CSL Intake - Nitron NTR R3 - Turner ARBs - Poly Bushed - Apex ARC-8 Square Setup - Alcon 365/345mm F&R BBK - Recaro SPGs - Sabelt Harnesses - SD MSA Full Cage - 6MT Conv. w/CAE Ultra Shifter - Seibon CSL Carbon Boot - MK-Rennsport GTS Wing - GSR Carbon Wings
Jump to top paulclaude is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Thu, Dec-19-2019, 09:09:47 PM   #3
Drewster
Registered User
 
Drewster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 4,160
In the garage:
Reputation: 0 Drewster is on a distinguished road

United States




Default Re: VANOS adaptation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by sapote View Post
Is it true the vanos adaptation can take care for vanos timing setting error up to +/- 8 deg? If yes then how does the adaptation deal with this case: with IN piston touching the cap and the cam is set at 57 deg retarded instead of the correct 60 deg? To get the cam to 60 deg retarded the piston needs to move forward further but it is already hits the cap.
If you mechanically bottom out, it just doesn't go to 60 degrees.. but it's also not going to -3 degrees just because it can. It's why you see cars that are slightly mis-timed without any DTC's - even 3 degress off it still "passes" the Vanos test because it's within what the DME can just adapt to.
Jump to top Drewster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Thu, Dec-19-2019, 11:16:38 PM   #4
terraphantm
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,815
In the garage:
Reputation: 11 terraphantm is on a distinguished road

United States




Default Re: VANOS adaptation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by sapote View Post
Is it true the vanos adaptation can take care for vanos timing setting error up to +/- 8 deg? If yes then how does the adaptation deal with this case: with IN piston touching the cap and the cam is set at 57 deg retarded instead of the correct 60 deg? To get the cam to 60 deg retarded the piston needs to move forward further but it is already hits the cap.
Are you confident the full range of travel is 60 degrees? Very well could be that it has extra travel to allow for such adaptions.

Of course if that's true, that means those who are careful enough to perfectly time their engines could perhaps increase the allowable vanos limits to get even more tuning capability.
Jump to top terraphantm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Fri, Dec-20-2019, 03:08:15 AM   #5
sapote
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 932
Reputation: 0 sapote is on a distinguished road

United States




Default Re: VANOS adaptation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by terraphantm View Post
Are you confident the full range of travel is 60 degrees? Very well could be that it has extra travel to allow for such adaptions.

Of course if that's true, that means those who are careful enough to perfectly time their engines could perhaps increase the allowable vanos limits to get even more tuning capability.
No, I think the full mechanical travel is more than 60 deg, but if it's true then how does the DME protect valves from bending if the cam sensor gone wild, or the solenoid stuck open?

One day I will measure the piston travel range or the spline shaft range.

From this data below, could someone help explaining what are these data and their relationship: actual value; pilot control; adaptation.

actual value = 60
pilot control = 52.5
adaptation = -6.8

Did the DME controlled to 52.5 but the cam only got to 60? What prevented the vanos from moving the piston rearward to advance from 60 to 52.5?
Attached Images
File Type: png adap.png (45.8 KB, 20 views)
Jump to top sapote is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Fri, Dec-20-2019, 03:13:46 AM   #6
Drewster
Registered User
 
Drewster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 4,160
In the garage:
Reputation: 0 Drewster is on a distinguished road

United States




Default Re: VANOS adaptation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by sapote View Post
actual value = 60
pilot control = 52.5
adaptation = -6.8

Did the DME controlled to 52.5 but the cam only got to 60? What prevented the vanos from moving the piston rearward to advance from 60 to 52.5?
Yes - the DME is requesting 52.5, but the current value is 60. The DME has adapted -6.8 degrees to correct the mechanical timing.

You should run the actual vanos test - it's a much better indication of the system.
Jump to top Drewster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Fri, Dec-20-2019, 04:20:29 AM   #7
terraphantm
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,815
In the garage:
Reputation: 11 terraphantm is on a distinguished road

United States




Default Re: VANOS adaptation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drewster View Post
Yes - the DME is requesting 52.5, but the current value is 60. The DME has adapted -6.8 degrees to correct the mechanical timing.

You should run the actual vanos test - it's a much better indication of the system.
There’s something weird with the 52.5° ones. A lot of software variants do that even when timed properly.
Jump to top terraphantm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Fri, Dec-20-2019, 08:21:24 PM   #8
sapote
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 932
Reputation: 0 sapote is on a distinguished road

United States




Default Re: VANOS adaptation question

why the adaptation value is not 52.8 - 60 = - 7.2 but instead -6.8?

or, the adaptation value is a long term averaged offset to be used in addition to the permanent offset (as -2 for M3 and +3 for CSL until the code changed). In order words, the adaptation value of -6.8 is added to the wheel sensor reading data (relative to crank sensor) in the equation during the car operation period until the system come up with a new value.
Jump to top sapote is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 01:39:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
M3Forum.com and M3forum.net is in no way sponsored, endorsed or affiliated by or with BMW NA / BMW AG or any of it's subsidiaries or vendors.
BMW and M3 (E90 M3 | E92 M3 | E93 M3 | E46 M3 | E36 M3 | E30 M3) are registered trademarks of BMW AG.
M3Forum Terms of Service
Copyright ©1999-2017 M3Forum.com
Discussing VANOS adaptation question in the E46 M3 (2001-2006) Forum - Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006. at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)