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E46 M3 (2001-2006) Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006.


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Old Thu, Dec-12-2019, 06:59:09 PM   #21
Drewster
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Default Re: Can you damage the engine with bad Vanos timing work?

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Originally Posted by Arith2 View Post
With the compression that makes sense. This engine is quite the exception.
It really isn't.. for most manufacturers, it's easier to list the non-interference engines. The only car makers I know that have more non-interference engines than the other way around are Mazda and Toyota. It's one of the reasons the Miata is so loved - you can shred a timing belt, slap a new one on, re-time, and hit the track.

Note that this list isn't 100% accurate - the J30 I had on my Honda was definitely an interference motor, while this site says it isn't.

http://yourcarangel.com/2014/07/inte...complete-list/

Last edited by Drewster; Thu, Dec-12-2019 at 07:41:10 PM.
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Old Thu, Dec-12-2019, 11:50:01 PM   #22
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Default Re: Can you damage the engine with bad Vanos timing work?

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I thought these were non interference engines? Literally you can't bend a valve if the piston was at TDC and the valve was fully open. That being said, it takes a special kind of stupid to do that and many other problems will happen IF the engine even runs.

VW and Audi have this problem all the time where timing jump one or two teeth and boom, the engine has catastrophic failure. I saw a 2011 528i where it had sucked in the serpentine through the crank seal and it wrapped around the crank. He should've just changed his valve cover gasket. Anyways...

The will definitely be long term damage such as hot spots and carbon build up from the AFR not being what it should. Those hot spots from carbon build up can cause detonation which leads to pre-ignition and then you find your piston in your oil pan.


I am not sure why you think this


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Old Thu, Dec-12-2019, 11:53:36 PM   #23
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Default Re: Can you damage the engine with bad Vanos timing work?

I was wrong, and the EX valves will be bent if the EX piston not bottomed out with cams aligned to bridge.

Looking at this cam timing, the IN valves are all safe but the EX valves are not. At TDC the EX valves are not closed completely and so any further EX cam retarded would lead to collision!!!!

Conclusion: IN valves are safe but one must making sure that the vanos EX piston must be bottomed with bridge aligned to cams holes.

The good news is that one can find out the EX issue by rotate the crank a few turns and the splines would push the piston to bottom if it was not, and if the cam hole still aligns with bridge then it is safe.

Further lesson: do not rote the crank with the Vanos EX piston cap removed as valves can hit.
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File Type: png valve timing.PNG (448.0 KB, 11 views)

Last edited by sapote; Fri, Dec-13-2019 at 12:08:01 AM.
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Old Fri, Dec-13-2019, 12:45:04 AM   #24
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Default Re: Can you damage the engine with bad Vanos timing work?

People are more worry about the cam sleeve bolts come loose, but what might happen if the hub bolts start backing out just a little bit?
If the IN hub bolt going loose, cam will be retarded and no engine damage before the bolts fell off, and in the meantime the DME should display error codes if the retard amount big enough to trigger the code. For this reason maybe it's better to engage the hub on the first tooth, which gives a longer slot for retarding and triggering the code for an early warning before the bolts fell off completely.

For the EX hub, the loose bolts will retard the cam further and valves can bend immediately, depending on how much more the hub rotated CCW within the sprocket slots. This is why it is better to set the EX hub CCW toward the end of the slots when inserting the spline shaft, instead of the first “sweet tooth”. IOW, the best scenario is the EX hub bolts close to touch the slot end after bolted up.
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Old Fri, Dec-13-2019, 12:48:54 AM   #25
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Default Re: Can you damage the engine with bad Vanos timing work?

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Originally Posted by Arith2 View Post
VW and Audi have this problem all the time where timing jump one or two teeth and boom, the engine has catastrophic failure. I saw a 2011 528i where it had sucked in the serpentine through the crank seal and it wrapped around the crank. He should've just changed his valve cover gasket. Anyways...
Wait how would changing his valve cover gasket avoid having the serpentine belt be sucked into the engine through the crank seal?
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Old Fri, Dec-13-2019, 12:51:49 AM   #26
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Default Re: Can you damage the engine with bad Vanos timing work?

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Originally Posted by sapote View Post
People are more worry about the cam sleeve bolts come loose, but what might happen if the hub bolts start backing out just a little bit?
If the IN hub bolt going loose, cam will be retarded and no engine damage before the bolts fell off, and in the meantime the DME should display error codes if the retard amount big enough to trigger the code. For this reason maybe it's better to engage the hub on the first tooth, which gives a longer slot for retarding and triggering the code for an early warning before the bolts fell off completely.

For the EX hub, the loose bolts will retard the cam further and valves can bend immediately, depending on how much more the hub rotated CCW within the sprocket slots. This is why it is better to set the EX hub CCW toward the end of the slots when inserting the spline shaft, instead of the first “sweet tooth”. IOW, the best scenario is the EX hub bolts close to touch the slot end after bolted up.
I've never heard of the exhaust bolts actually backing out. And it's the bolts that fix the sleeve to the cam itself that are the issue - the sprocket bolts aren't known to back out, so the rotation won't really make a difference.
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Old Fri, Dec-13-2019, 01:42:00 AM   #27
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Default Re: Can you damage the engine with bad Vanos timing work?

The hub and the cam sleeve carry the same rotational torque load, but the sleeve has smaller contact surface than the hub and so I think this makes the difference of why no hub bolts issue so far. Hub bolts are torqued 1.5 ft-lbs more than sleeve bolts although the threads are the same. Why?
But there are people who followed the Beisan instruction using calibrated arm to torque hub bolts to spec, and I wonder how much they were actually torqued. The TIS instruction is similar but it called out to use a special torque 10mm open wrench torque wrench. My method is just remove the vanos again and torque the bolts with a socket on a torque wrench.
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Old Fri, Dec-13-2019, 03:38:51 AM   #28
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Default Re: Can you damage the engine with bad Vanos timing work?

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Originally Posted by ThunderMoose View Post
I am not sure why you think this
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I was talking with a master tech and he said the 3 series engines are all non interference but we were talking about e90s and f30s. In my head I lumped the S54 in there but with how high compression is, that's impossible as was already stated. I would imagine the S65 and S85 are the same way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by heinzboehmer View Post
Wait how would changing his valve cover gasket avoid having the serpentine belt be sucked into the engine through the crank seal?
You know, it sounds completely ridiculous. Oil was leaking that bad out of the front and the belt slipped off. When it did, it wrapped around the crank and entered the engine through the seal. Apparently this happens more often than one would think because the guy that did the quote had seen it a few times when he worked at the dealership. It was just cheaper to replace the engine rather than tearing it apart and seeing what's broken. Diag alone would've cost the guy half the price of an engine.
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Old Fri, Dec-13-2019, 07:04:29 AM   #29
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Default Re: Can you damage the engine with bad Vanos timing work?

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Originally Posted by Arith2 View Post
You know, it sounds completely ridiculous. Oil was leaking that bad out of the front and the belt slipped off. When it did, it wrapped around the crank and entered the engine through the seal. Apparently this happens more often than one would think because the guy that did the quote had seen it a few times when he worked at the dealership. It was just cheaper to replace the engine rather than tearing it apart and seeing what's broken. Diag alone would've cost the guy half the price of an engine.
Wow that's ridiculous. Can't believe that was overlooked when the engine was designed. I had heard about some N series engines sucking in belts, but always assumed it was more of a freak accident thing than something that happened regularly.
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Old Fri, Dec-13-2019, 06:52:16 PM   #30
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Default Re: Can you damage the engine with bad Vanos timing work?

Actually the EX piston never can touch the front cap at its most retarded position, but the spline shaft bottomed out on the pump disk center shaft first. So, it is so easy to verify when the piston bottomed is to look for the spline shaft touching against the pump center shaft. With that, and with the bridge or carpenter 90* angle to verify the cam holes are straight up, it guarantees that no valves interference happened with running engine for both EX and IN valve trains.

I removed the vanos from my car this morning to verify this, and check on other things.
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Last edited by sapote; Fri, Dec-13-2019 at 08:02:10 PM.
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Discussing Can you damage the engine with bad Vanos timing work? in the E46 M3 (2001-2006) Forum - Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006. at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)