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M3 Track: Racing and DE Best mod for speed is learning to get the most out of what you currently have. Tracks and DE's is the place to start!


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Old Fri, Aug-14-2009, 08:13:10 PM   #31
anti-roll
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Originally Posted by hal c View Post
Stop and think how much money it would cost to retool/scrap expensive robotic welding equipment for epoxy. It would be ridiculous from a financial perspective. And in the end the epoxy would be more difficult to implement and flat out more expensive to use per inch. Plus when galvanization is done AFTER welding you've eliminated one of the primary benefits of using the epoxy in the first place in this application.

I'm not trying to say epoxy is better than welding all of the time and every time. If my tone suggested otherwise let me clear that up now. Every situation is different, and sometimes it does not make sense. You can decide for yourself what you want for your applications.
I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm not taunting you and I appreciate the counter arguments you presented.

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Originally Posted by PKumarM3 View Post
hmmm, whens the last time you heard of an epoxied roll cage?
Excellent example. Completely forgot about that. Never heard of a roll cage being held together by epoxy. If indeed this has been attempted, then I'd be very curious by whom and what the outcome was.

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Originally Posted by LightWerkz View Post
Probably never and never will. Wouldn't seem like a good choice.

These reinforcement plates are sandwiched in between the mounting point and the subframe. A little bit different then a roll cage construction. Then again I am no expert, just one voicing opinion and interest in the epoxy method since it seems easier for the non-welding DIY'r.
I agree 100%. Strengthening the subframe with epoxy is cheaper and seems far less complicated. To a DIY'r, it's almost a no-brainer to go with epoxy and/or foam instead of weld-in reinforcements.
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Old Fri, Aug-14-2009, 08:55:40 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by LightWerkz View Post
... These reinforcement plates are sandwiched in between the mounting point and the subframe. A little bit different then a roll cage construction. Then again I am no expert, just one voicing opinion and interest in the epoxy method since it seems easier for the non-welding DIY'r.
Exactly and which is why Hal said "I'm not trying to say epoxy is better than welding all of the time and every time". For the rear subframe mounts of our cars, the epoxy would be speared across the entire TMS plate and then attached to the mounting points vs welding the plates which would only be attached by the four edges of the plate. In that instance, it seems to me that the epoxy offers better coverage. But I am no expert on the subject either.

I'm glad I have the kit installed especially at the group buy rate that was setup but if I had known more about the epoxy at the time, I would have had Taso use that method instead. Now if I were going for a roll cage, of course I'd (and I'm sure most others) would opt for welding, lol.
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Old Sun, Aug-16-2009, 04:23:59 AM   #33
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haha my bad, i got excited there for a bit... anyway, ya back to the original thread... gathering all this information, i will be epoxying my turner reinforcements to me subframe, now i just need to find a reliable shop to do this correctly...
In case you are reconsidering the epoxy route and might go with welding after all, there are 2 shops in Orange County that can easily handle this for you. The first one is Evosport in Huntington Beach. The second is GMG in Santa Ana. Both are well respected in the local club racing community. Good luck!
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Old Sun, Aug-16-2009, 05:07:21 AM   #34
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I don't discount the epoxy method, hell at work they use it on the aluminum components making up the fuselage of helicopters. I think both methods, welding and epoxy, have their pros and cons:

Welding
* Strong enough (if properly welded)
* Quick (no down time waiting for curing)
* Needs have prepared surface (bare metal)
* Possibly effects anti-corrosion coating on backside of metal (peanuts, I wouldn't worry about it)

Epoxy
* As strong or stronger than welding (again if properly done)
* Easier then welding (for the non-welders)
* Longer Down-Time (time waiting for curing)
* Needs have prepared surface (bare metal same as welding)
* Doesn't affect anti-corrosion
* Probably more expensive (raw materials)

Note, on E36 M3's BMW didn't even fully weld the subframe reinforcement plates. They stitch welded around the perimeter (1" weld, at 2" intervals or so).
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Old Sun, Aug-16-2009, 04:45:44 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by m5guy View Post
In case you are reconsidering the epoxy route and might go with welding after all, there are 2 shops in Orange County that can easily handle this for you. The first one is Evosport in Huntington Beach. The second is GMG in Santa Ana. Both are well respected in the local club racing community. Good luck!
thanx m5guy! i appreciate it... i wanna keep seeing where this thread ig going before i make any solid decisions... all this back and fourth is awesome, i gives me perspective on both ends...
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Old Sun, Aug-16-2009, 07:35:26 PM   #36
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Reinforcing the rear subframe is a complete waste of time and money until and unless there is a crack. If you use the care very heavily, you have maybe a 5% chance of failure. The cost of repairing the subframe after failure is only slightly higher than before, and it's a waste of money to do it ahead of time.
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Old Sun, Aug-16-2009, 07:39:40 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by swaybar3 View Post
Excellent example. Completely forgot about that. Never heard of a roll cage being held together by epoxy. If indeed this has been attempted, then I'd be very curious by whom and what the outcome was.
You've never heard of it because it would be an entirely stupid application. Epoxy makes clear sense across large surface areas, not in small contact points.

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I agree 100%. Strengthening the subframe with epoxy is cheaper and seems far less complicated. To a DIY'r, it's almost a no-brainer to go with epoxy and/or foam instead of weld-in reinforcements.
Actually, to most DIYers who would do this themselves, welding is the easiest solution.

And what is your objection to doing the cavity filling structural foam? It's the only preventative reinforcement that makes any sense at all.
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Old Sun, Aug-16-2009, 11:34:35 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by nrubenstein View Post
Actually, to most DIYers who would do this themselves, welding is the easiest solution.
It's not the easiest.

Most people don't have welding equipment, let alone the experience. Using epoxy for reinforcements would be easier than welding.

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Originally Posted by nrubenstein View Post
And what is your objection to doing the cavity filling structural foam? It's the only preventative reinforcement that makes any sense at all.
I don't have any objections to any method, as long as it works. All I said was that most subframes are still being reinforced by welding.
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Old Mon, Aug-17-2009, 01:19:54 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by swaybar3 View Post
It's not the easiest.

Most people don't have welding equipment, let alone the experience. Using epoxy for reinforcements would be easier than welding.



I don't have any objections to any method, as long as it works. All I said was that most subframes are still being reinforced by welding.
It's been my observation that most people who are sufficiently inclined to DIY the rear subframe reinforcement do have easy access to welding equipment.

And you said a lot more than "most subframes are still being reinforced by welding."
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Old Mon, Aug-17-2009, 02:46:46 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by nrubenstein View Post
It's been my observation that most people who are sufficiently inclined to DIY the rear subframe reinforcement do have easy access to welding equipment.
No, you're misinterpreting this again.

You're assuming that anyone who will attempt a subframe reinforcement has welding equipment. In other words, if they didn't have welding equipment, they wouldn't attempt it, even if they could do it. The point is that anyone who can unbolt the diff can reinforce the subframe with epoxy, but they can't with welding due to lack of equipment and experience using this equipment (not so much the experience with actual subframe reinforcement).

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Originally Posted by nrubenstein View Post
And you said a lot more than "most subframes are still being reinforced by welding."
Yes, I did. I'm not sure what your point is. In short, I said that welding reinforcement plates is still the preferred method to epoxy and there are many reasons behind it. If this was not the case, performance shops would have started utilizing epoxy by now. But they haven't.
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Discussing rear subframe reinforcement... in the M3 Track: Racing and DE Forum - Best mod for speed is learning to get the most out of what you currently have. Tracks and DE's is the place to start! at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)