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E46 M3 (2001-2006) Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006.


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Old Fri, Nov-10-2017, 02:44:58 PM   #21
mpower22
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Default Re: OEM cats vs Euro Cats vs CSL Cats vs ALL other cats

A higher CPI will be more restrictive in any case; but if you notice there is a HUGE difference in size with US cats vs Euro due to the fact that they had to fit them in such a confined area for emissions requirements. Euro cats can be allowed the lower CPI because the exhaust can travel over the substrate for a longer period of time. Getting any additional heat away from the engine bay (especially with the amount of plastics under the hood in modern cars) is only a good thing.

Now in regards to your other question, I don't have experience with FI because my car consists of only Original and/or European BMW parts, so I would have to leave that for someone else to answer.
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Old Fri, Nov-10-2017, 02:49:54 PM   #22
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Default Re: OEM cats vs Euro Cats vs CSL Cats vs ALL other cats

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Originally Posted by bmw m3 s50 View Post
My understanding why BMW placed the cats in the headers for USA cars was due to cold start emissions since I assume the car is running richer when the car us cold, but it wouldn't account for the final air quality coming out of the muffler. Only the catalytic process would be responsible for the final air quality.
Yes, the closer the cat is to the cylinder, the quicker it heats up and begins catalyzing.


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Assuming due to the higher CPI in the USA count even if they are moved further down stream, they would still be restrictive due to the CPI count? Leading to loss of power?
I think the further downstream the better, as long as the cat is reaching operating temp in a reasonable amount of time. With it further downstream the exhaust gases will have cooled and contracted some, so the cat is conveying the same mass of exhaust at a lower volume. In some cars the cat being up on the header is probably interfering with exhaust tuning too.
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Old Fri, Nov-10-2017, 02:50:29 PM   #23
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Default Re: OEM cats vs Euro Cats vs CSL Cats vs ALL other cats

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Originally Posted by mpower22 View Post
A higher CPI will be more restrictive in any case; but if you notice there is a HUGE difference in size with US cats vs Euro due to the fact that they had to fit them in such a confined area for emissions requirements. Euro cats can be allowed the lower CPI because the exhaust can travel over the substrate for a longer period of time. Getting any additional heat away from the engine bay (especially with the amount of plastics under the hood in modern cars) is only a good thing.

Now in regards to your other question, I don't have experience with FI because my car consists of only Original and/or European BMW parts, so I would have to leave that for someone else to answer.
I completely understand that concept and noticed that euro cats have a longer body length then USA cats.

I am assuming that a lower CPI count such as 200 but in a longer body would be less restrictive then higher CPI count such as 400 in a shorter body.

Is that thinking correct?

Also my understanding was the placement of the cats was the cause of the 10hp difference between the EURO and USA m3's now I am guessing CPI has more to do with it?
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Old Fri, Nov-10-2017, 03:04:42 PM   #24
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Default Re: OEM cats vs Euro Cats vs CSL Cats vs ALL other cats

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Originally Posted by bmw m3 s50 View Post
I completely understand that concept and noticed that euro cats have a longer body length then USA cats.

I am assuming that a lower CPI count such as 200 but in a longer body would be less restrictive then higher CPI count such as 400 in a shorter body.

Is that thinking correct?

Also my understanding was the placement of the cats was the cause of the 10hp difference between the EURO and USA m3's now I am guessing CPI has more to do with it?
Yes, that's exactly what I was going to say, but left out of the other post. That is the primary reason for 10hp deficit. The original exhaust (euro) was designed in that manner to be more free-flowing. But as it is with any emissions components since their inception; they sacrifice performance or reliability for less pollution or better fuel economy. Examples include added heat in the engine compartment with so much more plastic as we discussed, and even the auto start/stop function on cars now; I don't even want to think about how much stress that ridiculous requirement places on the starter so they can squeeze a few more drops of fuel to get a better rating. It drives me crazy on my other car because I have to manually disable it every time I start the car. I'm all for cats and cleaner air, but some of these controls are unwarranted and getting out of control. In fact, the only reason BMW put the cats near the engine in the first place was to meet CA emissions standards. Often times in the past, a car was made specifically for CA. I believe the regular E46 had a separate version. Because the car didn't have certain production numbers tied to it, it didn't make sense for BMW to create a special CA (CARB) compliant vehicle just for the M3, so they did it for all across the board.
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Old Fri, Nov-10-2017, 03:10:17 PM   #25
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Default Re: OEM cats vs Euro Cats vs CSL Cats vs ALL other cats

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Originally Posted by mpower22 View Post
Yes, that's exactly what I was going to say, but left out of the other post. That is the primary reason for 10hp deficit. The original exhaust (euro) was designed in that manner to be more free-flowing. But as it is with any emissions components since their inception; they sacrifice performance or reliability for less pollution or better fuel economy. Examples include added heat in the engine compartment with so much more plastic as we discussed, and even the auto start/stop function on cars now; I don't even want to think about how much stress that ridiculous requirement places on the starter so they can squeeze a few more drops of fuel to get a better rating. It drives me crazy on my other car because I have to manually disable it every time I start the car. I'm all for cats and cleaner air, but some of these controls are unwarranted and getting out of control. In fact, the only reason BMW put the cats near the engine in the first place was to meet CA emissions standards. Often times in the past, a car was made specifically for CA. I believe the regular E46 had a separate version. Because the car didn't have certain production numbers tied to it, it didn't make sense for BMW to create a special CA (CARB) compliant vehicle just for the M3, so they did it for all across the board.
Do you think that in the end the difference in the 400 cell cats and the 200 cell cats will be more of an issue with higher flow in exhaust say through a supercharger?

Or will the power difference still stay within the loss of 10-15hp?

My guess with the greater increase in flow the 400 cell will cause more of loss in power then 200 cell with higher flow of a supercharger. My guess instead of the 10-15hp of the NA you might see 25-35hp decrease in power or would the loss sorta remain the same?
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Old Fri, Nov-10-2017, 04:22:29 PM   #26
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Default Re: OEM cats vs Euro Cats vs CSL Cats vs ALL other cats

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Yes, that is correct and part of the research I had done as well because this had been an issue for such a long time on here. It was good to finally get it answered without all the guessing that goes on. Basically what I was looking for was "proof in the pictures".
They're definitely 200 (or at the very least, the US and Euro are the same CPI). Confirmed by having US and Euro on hand.
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Old Fri, Nov-10-2017, 04:38:01 PM   #27
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Default Re: OEM cats vs Euro Cats vs CSL Cats vs ALL other cats

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They're definitely 200 (or at the very least, the US and Euro are the same CPI). Confirmed by having US and Euro on hand.
Terra, if you look at the pics of 3 page of that thread the pic at the top which is the USA cats clearly has more CPI then the pic at the bottom which is the Euro cats.
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Old Fri, Nov-10-2017, 04:50:30 PM   #28
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Default Re: OEM cats vs Euro Cats vs CSL Cats vs ALL other cats

There are also differences in the materials used - especially on aftermarket cats. Generally, even with high cell count, aftermarket cats won't allow you to pass emissions readiness. GESi is one of the few that can, but they're considerably more expensive presumably due to all of the precious metals used.
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Old Fri, Nov-10-2017, 04:55:27 PM   #29
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Default Re: OEM cats vs Euro Cats vs CSL Cats vs ALL other cats

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There are also differences in the materials used - especially on aftermarket cats. Generally, even with high cell count, aftermarket cats won't allow you to pass emissions readiness. GESi is one of the few that can, but they're considerably more expensive presumably due to all of the precious metals used.
Yep, that's why I left out magnaflow and vibrant.

I wasn't sure about the AA cats but it seems they stop producing the cats.

There are other companies such as random technologies was not mentioned.

The big thing to determine ( at least for me ) is if you can use USA cats in section 1 and have the same results as euro cats.
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Old Fri, Nov-10-2017, 05:58:04 PM   #30
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Default Re: OEM cats vs Euro Cats vs CSL Cats vs ALL other cats

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Originally Posted by bmw m3 s50 View Post
Also my understanding was the placement of the cats was the cause of the 10hp difference between the EURO and USA m3's now I am guessing CPI has more to do with it?
I would not assume the change in placement is trivial without proof.

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Originally Posted by bmw m3 s50 View Post
My guess instead of the 10-15hp of the NA you might see 25-35hp decrease in power or would the loss sorta remain the same?
Losses scale up.

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Originally Posted by bmw m3 s50 View Post
Terra, if you look at the pics of 3 page of that thread the pic at the top which is the USA cats clearly has more CPI then the pic at the bottom which is the Euro cats.
Terra says he has compared them IRL.
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Discussing OEM cats vs Euro Cats vs CSL Cats vs ALL other cats in the E46 M3 (2001-2006) Forum - Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006. at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)