BMW M3 Forum
BMW M3 Forum BMW M3 Gallery BMW M3 Reviews BMW M3 Social Groups BMW M3 Chat M3Forum Sponsors >>
Loading


Mobile M3forum
Go Back   BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X) > BMW M3 Discussions > E46 M3 (2001-2006)
Tire Rack Buy Winter Tires Now!
Not a member? Register Now!
Register Gallery All Albums Garage Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Calendar FAQ

E46 M3 (2001-2006) Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old Sat, Aug-12-2017, 01:36:07 AM   #161
Brian N
The Collector
 
Brian N's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,600
In the garage:
Reputation: 0 Brian N is on a distinguished road
Location: Orange County, CA

United States




Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

That would be awesome if Raj came out with a tool and procedure to increase the pressure. I have heard a few people talking about this being an issue but I'm not sure if they ended up finding it was the root cause. It seems like with cammed cars it's always a number of different little issues. The cams just seem to bring up underlying problems you didn't know the car had until they are put on. The pressure might be a piece of the puzzle.
__________________


-My Journal-
Jump to top Brian N is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Register now and remove these ads
Old Sat, Aug-12-2017, 04:49:14 AM   #162
paulclaude
Registered User
 
paulclaude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 279
Reputation: 0 paulclaude is on a distinguished road

Scotland




Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gearhead55 View Post
So in other cammed car issues:

my builder Casey at Racewerkz spent a long time talking with Raj at Beisan trying to figure out why my car keeps throwing the 185 code. The car is accurately timed and the solenoid is fine. Apparently Raj thinks that the vanos is not creating sufficient pressure to adjust the exhaust cam. This could be because there is gunk blocking oil pathways or simply because the stock pressure is not high enough to sufficiently move the larger cam.

Has anyone else experienced anything like this or even heard of this issue of the vanos not having enough pressure to adjust the cam timing?

Apparently the stock system runs at something like 100 bar but can be increased safely to 115 bar (basically a zillion psi), but in order to do that you need some way to measure the pressure at the vanos unit. Raj has to create a tool to do this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian N View Post
That would be awesome if Raj came out with a tool and procedure to increase the pressure. I have heard a few people talking about this being an issue but I'm not sure if they ended up finding it was the root cause. It seems like with cammed cars it's always a number of different little issues. The cams just seem to bring up underlying problems you didn't know the car had until they are put on. The pressure might be a piece of the puzzle.
I assume here that we are talking about the issue of inlet cam 'excessive leakage' (via GT1/DIS Vanos test) as experienced by several members running the 288 inlet cam. I've recently experienced this with an S54 i've been working on, and despite full rebuild of the Vanos, still seems to intermittently fail the test.

You should be able to see if it is an issue in by logging Vanos position (actual vs. targeted).

Increase in overall pressure may certainly help. Also, having recently switched to an AEM Infinity Standalone ECU, another potential solution could be adjustment of the duty signal from the ECU. The infinity has full duty adjustment for Vanos, so by logging target vs. actual values, you can adjust the duty factors to ensure the cam is maintaining/reaching actual target values.

That got me thinking if the stock DME had similar kinds of control. Looking into the stock DME parameters, I did find some scalars that control the Vanos pulse width 'turn on/off factor' which could be worth some testing and adjustment;

K_EVAN1_AUF_FAKT
K_EVAN1_AB_FAKT
__________________
2005 E46 M3 Track - DIY Tuned - SSV2/BW 3.5" Single Exit - Schrick 288/280 - AEM Infinity - Karbonius CSL Intake - KW Clubsport/GC - Turner ARBs - Poly Bushed - Apex ARC-8 Square Setup - PB 380mm BBK - Corbeau Buckets - Sabelt Harnesses - SD Half Cage - 6MT Conv. w/CAE Ultra Shifter
2004 E46 M3 Road - CSL Wheels - Bilstein PSS10 - Performance BMW/CSL Brakes
Jump to top paulclaude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sat, Aug-12-2017, 05:58:08 AM   #163
.
Registered User
 
.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 226
In the garage:
Reputation: 0 . is on a distinguished road
Location: Ocoee

United States




Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gearhead55 View Post
So in other cammed car issues:

my builder Casey at Racewerkz spent a long time talking with Raj at Beisan trying to figure out why my car keeps throwing the 185 code. The car is accurately timed and the solenoid is fine. Apparently Raj thinks that the vanos is not creating sufficient pressure to adjust the exhaust cam. This could be because there is gunk blocking oil pathways or simply because the stock pressure is not high enough to sufficiently move the larger cam.

Has anyone else experienced anything like this or even heard of this issue of the vanos not having enough pressure to adjust the cam timing?

Apparently the stock system runs at something like 100 bar but can be increased safely to 115 bar (basically a zillion psi), but in order to do that you need some way to measure the pressure at the vanos unit. Raj has to create a tool to do this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian N View Post
That would be awesome if Raj came out with a tool and procedure to increase the pressure. I have heard a few people talking about this being an issue but I'm not sure if they ended up finding it was the root cause. It seems like with cammed cars it's always a number of different little issues. The cams just seem to bring up underlying problems you didn't know the car had until they are put on. The pressure might be a piece of the puzzle.
It's pretty easy to make a tool to read the pressure actually. I just bought a spare banjo bolt to tap into, a 2000psi gauge, and one or two NPT reducers. I think i posted pictures way back in this thread but can post them again if you want. Mine was initially very low (50 bar) till I replace the pressure accumulator. Yes the pressure is adjustable from the input pressure regulator but if pressure is leaking out somewhere adjusting it does nothing so you need to find the source of it first.

If you're concerned about gunk block up have you tried another valve body one that you know is good? Also are you running stock lift cams or higher lift? I don't see stock oil pressure being too low to move either but maybe more likely with higher lift.
__________________

Engine: Lang Racing stage 2.5 head, Schrick 288/280 cams, ARP studs, JE cut-ring HG, TTFS, Beisans vanos, afe intake, CSL headers, SGT scza section 3.

Driveline: Clutch Masters FX725, AKG stage II shifter, Vibra technics engine and trans mounts

Suspension: Bilstein coilovers, camber mod, UUC sways, PFC direct drive, PFC 08's, Nitto NT05's.

Instagram: instatroll_zach
Jump to top . is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sat, Aug-12-2017, 11:32:52 AM   #164
digger
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 546
Reputation: 0 digger is on a distinguished road

United States




Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HassanEido View Post
You need to. The reason for that being, is that you absolutely do not want the cyl walls to be smooth at ALL. There is a reason honing is done in a criss-cross pattern at 45 degree angles. U basically removed that. In fact, you replicated what a worn cyl wall finish would be like.. The rings have nothing to seal against.. You might have also increased your ring gap. This way you will defenitely get oil in your combustion chamber, and that's your culprit right there. Take the block out, measure cyls for roundness, see if its workable, hone, proper ring gap it, and button it back up, watch it make more power
he is not going to remove honing marks (which are actually deep valleys) with 3000 grit paper by hand, its not aggressive enough. the risk with sanding is residue not being cleaned. it likes to get stuck in the valleys and why you need to scrub a freshly honed cylinder wall with a brush and hot soapy water and degreaser extensively. lack of cleaning id assume to hurt all the rings which would show as leakdown or compression issues.

most people dont appreciate that if the valve and guide clearances are not correct then the stem seal cant seal properly. im not saying this is the issue but i know of others who couldnt solve leaks due to worn guides
__________________
1996 e36 M3 Evo

Last edited by digger; Sat, Aug-12-2017 at 11:44:28 AM.
Jump to top digger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sat, Aug-12-2017, 04:06:03 PM   #165
HassanEido
Registered User
 
HassanEido's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,445
In the garage:
Reputation: 0 HassanEido is on a distinguished road

Lebanon




Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by digger View Post
he is not going to remove honing marks (which are actually deep valleys) with 3000 grit paper by hand, its not aggressive enough. the risk with sanding is residue not being cleaned. it likes to get stuck in the valleys and why you need to scrub a freshly honed cylinder wall with a brush and hot soapy water and degreaser extensively. lack of cleaning id assume to hurt all the rings which would show as leakdown or compression issues.

most people dont appreciate that if the valve and guide clearances are not correct then the stem seal cant seal properly. im not saying this is the issue but i know of others who couldnt solve leaks due to worn guides
Yeah not sure about that. I've seen honing marks removed with plastic scotch brite pads lol. Assuming his cylinder walls were factory fresh, and his rust was superficial enough to not eat away the finish, then the 3000 might not do alot, but it's certainly possible. I also agree regarding the residue. I wouldn't sand the walls with anything. I might ball hone it if I were feeling brave lol
__________________
Mods:
SSV2 catless headers, afe plastic intake elbow Afe prodry drop in, electric fan conversion, SuperSprint Race inspired custom section 3,tms pulleys,Cat Cams 280 272, custom dyno tune, csl box pending
348.4 whp 283.5 wtq
Jump to top HassanEido is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Sat, Aug-12-2017, 06:26:40 PM   #166
gearhead55
Registered User
 
gearhead55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 228
Reputation: 0 gearhead55 is on a distinguished road

United States




Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian N View Post
That would be awesome if Raj came out with a tool and procedure to increase the pressure. I have heard a few people talking about this being an issue but I'm not sure if they ended up finding it was the root cause. It seems like with cammed cars it's always a number of different little issues. The cams just seem to bring up underlying problems you didn't know the car had until they are put on. The pressure might be a piece of the puzzle.
Yea I think you're right.


Quote:
Originally Posted by paulclaude View Post
I assume here that we are talking about the issue of inlet cam 'excessive leakage' (via GT1/DIS Vanos test) as experienced by several members running the 288 inlet cam. I've recently experienced this with an S54 i've been working on, and despite full rebuild of the Vanos, still seems to intermittently fail the test.

You should be able to see if it is an issue in by logging Vanos position (actual vs. targeted).

Increase in overall pressure may certainly help. Also, having recently switched to an AEM Infinity Standalone ECU, another potential solution could be adjustment of the duty signal from the ECU. The infinity has full duty adjustment for Vanos, so by logging target vs. actual values, you can adjust the duty factors to ensure the cam is maintaining/reaching actual target values.

That got me thinking if the stock DME had similar kinds of control. Looking into the stock DME parameters, I did find some scalars that control the Vanos pulse width 'turn on/off factor' which could be worth some testing and adjustment;

K_EVAN1_AUF_FAKT
K_EVAN1_AB_FAKT
This is a bit over my head technically, but i'll pass it on to my builder. I think though that my issue is with the exhaust cam side, not the intake side. If i'm understanding and remembering correctly it seems to be passing vanos tests but still throwing the 185 code. I'll give him this info and see if it helps.


Quote:
Originally Posted by . View Post
It's pretty easy to make a tool to read the pressure actually. I just bought a spare banjo bolt to tap into, a 2000psi gauge, and one or two NPT reducers. I think i posted pictures way back in this thread but can post them again if you want. Mine was initially very low (50 bar) till I replace the pressure accumulator. Yes the pressure is adjustable from the input pressure regulator but if pressure is leaking out somewhere adjusting it does nothing so you need to find the source of it first.

If you're concerned about gunk block up have you tried another valve body one that you know is good? Also are you running stock lift cams or higher lift? I don't see stock oil pressure being too low to move either but maybe more likely with higher lift.
Good to know. I'm not sure if another valve body has been tried yet. It's running Schrick 288/280 cams. We'll test pressure and go from there I guess.


Thanks for the input guys!
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serious View Post
nah this one dude on the forum said it was all good. I'm sure he knows what he's talking about.
Jump to top gearhead55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sat, Aug-12-2017, 06:40:30 PM   #167
idntknow2005
Registered User
 
idntknow2005's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,475
Reputation: 0 idntknow2005 is on a distinguished road
Location: nashville area

United States




Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

I also made a vanos pressure gauge. It's relatively easy to make. I posted a pic before.
__________________
2001 E46 ///M3 - LSB+ on Cinnamon - Full Restoration "Brought back from the dead"
Jump to top idntknow2005 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sun, Aug-13-2017, 03:15:25 AM   #168
digger
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 546
Reputation: 0 digger is on a distinguished road

United States




Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HassanEido View Post
Yeah not sure about that. I've seen honing marks removed with plastic scotch brite pads lol. Assuming his cylinder walls were factory fresh, and his rust was superficial enough to not eat away the finish, then the 3000 might not do alot, but it's certainly possible. I also agree regarding the residue. I wouldn't sand the walls with anything. I might ball hone it if I were feeling brave lol
scotchbrite has far coarser abrasive particles, often around 400-1000 grit depending on the color. 3000 grit you cant tell its even sandpaper you would need about a month. if coarser was used then you can great some problems with not valleys you dont store enough oil on the cylinder walls so everything wears to hell. would show up on a pressure test though as the compression and second rings would be stuffed to
__________________
1996 e36 M3 Evo

Last edited by digger; Sun, Aug-13-2017 at 03:24:07 AM.
Jump to top digger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sun, Aug-13-2017, 04:02:49 AM   #169
paulclaude
Registered User
 
paulclaude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 279
Reputation: 0 paulclaude is on a distinguished road

Scotland




Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gearhead55 View Post
This is a bit over my head technically, but i'll pass it on to my builder. I think though that my issue is with the exhaust cam side, not the intake side. If i'm understanding and remembering correctly it seems to be passing vanos tests but still throwing the 185 code. I'll give him this info and see if it helps.
185 code is for 'Exhaust Vanos function' - that's more likely to be an assembly issue than anything else. Running the DIS/GT1 Vanos test will give you more of an idea what's happening there.

Issue I was talking about was related to the 'excessive leakage' (reported via GT1 Vanos test) with the 288 inlet. This results in the cam not reaching/maintaining target position, although function is ok - apologies for the mix-up!
__________________
2005 E46 M3 Track - DIY Tuned - SSV2/BW 3.5" Single Exit - Schrick 288/280 - AEM Infinity - Karbonius CSL Intake - KW Clubsport/GC - Turner ARBs - Poly Bushed - Apex ARC-8 Square Setup - PB 380mm BBK - Corbeau Buckets - Sabelt Harnesses - SD Half Cage - 6MT Conv. w/CAE Ultra Shifter
2004 E46 M3 Road - CSL Wheels - Bilstein PSS10 - Performance BMW/CSL Brakes
Jump to top paulclaude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mon, Aug-21-2017, 05:44:07 PM   #170
rpearl555
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 478
Reputation: 0 rpearl555 is on a distinguished road
Location: Florida

United States




Default Re: Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power?

I have values of ~60 for both inlet vanos actual and inlet pilot control dme

The outlet vanos actual is ~53 while the outlet pilot control dme is down around ~20


Is this a tune issue? Car is stock software still on 288 cams



Forgot to mention both inlet and outlet vanos adaptations are at 0

Last edited by rpearl555; Mon, Aug-21-2017 at 06:19:12 PM.
Jump to top rpearl555 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 06:28:30 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
M3Forum.com and M3forum.net is in no way sponsored, endorsed or affiliated by or with BMW NA / BMW AG or any of it's subsidiaries or vendors.
BMW and M3 (E90 M3 | E92 M3 | E93 M3 | E46 M3 | E36 M3 | E30 M3) are registered trademarks of BMW AG.
M3Forum Terms of Service
Copyright 1999-2017 M3Forum.com
Discussing Why is my cammed s54 still making the same power? in the E46 M3 (2001-2006) Forum - Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006. at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)