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E36 M3 (1992-1999) {Euro - S50 B32 321hp @ 7400 rpm} {U.S. - S52 B32 240 hp @ 6000 rpm}
Total Produced: 71,212 - Years Produced: 1992 to 1999


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Old Wed, Jul-06-2016, 01:58:21 PM   #21
_JohnnyD_
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Default Re: OEM Plus Eurospec M3 Build

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Originally Posted by M_Parallel View Post
Interesting. Does make me wonder. You'd expect BMW to do so if it was better. But that is an assumption. Lets say the engine is designed to operate at 90, having the fan come on as early as 80 might keep it from getting to optimal operating temp.

Typically lower temp thermostats and fan temp switches are used to compensate for a removing the clutched fan. I don't plan on doing that.

I also don't live in an extremely hot climate and don't plan on taking the car to the track.

The risk for me would be that the engine doesn't hit full operating temps on short drives.


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Old Wed, Jul-06-2016, 01:58:42 PM   #22
M_Parallel
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Default Re: OEM Plus Eurospec M3 Build

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Originally Posted by _JohnnyD_ View Post
I Googled a few videos showing a temp gage with a bypassed buffer. Mine is definitely buffered because it shows a very consistent temp during the entire drive.


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Yes, they all are, from factory. But M's are less than others. And US more than Euro from the many related topics all over the forums.

Could be that it was like that in my M3 cluster coding file. Don't have it here.

I do have the one from my 328i here (coding index 25, vs 27 for the M3) I know the C27 has a slightly different parameter from the temp gauges values.


Here's part of the cluster coding file. Probably will read like hieroglyphs if you're not familiar with it, but in short:

There are 5 values (temps) that can be coded for 5 designated needle points on the scale:

1: at end of blue scale
2: just out of blue scale
3: middle
4: just right from middle
5: start of redzone (light on)


Temp_geberwert_1 00000031 (01)
TEMP_GEBERWERT_1 00000031 (01) FF
wert_01 31 31 value 01 E36

Temp_geberwert_2 00000033 (01)
TEMP_GEBERWERT_2 00000033 (01) FF
wert_01 7B 7B value 01 !(S50B30,S50B32,ALPINA)
wert_02 92 92 value 02 S50B30,S50B32,ALPINA

Temp_geberwert_3 00000035 (01)
TEMP_GEBERWERT_3 00000035 (01) FF
wert_01 B0 B0 value 01 E36

Temp_geberwert_4 00000037 (01)
TEMP_GEBERWERT_4 00000037 (01) FF
wert_01 E1 E1 value 01 !(S50B30,S50B32,ALPINA)
wert_02 D8 D8 value 02 S50B30,S50B32,ALPINA

Temp_geberwert_5 00000039 (01)
TEMP_GEBERWERT_5 00000039 (01) FF
wert_01 E7 E7 value 01 E36


Here you see that by default there are 2 different temps defined for position 2 and 4. For S50B30,S50B32,ALPINA models and that are not.
With the lower value being for the S50B30,S50B32,ALPINA.

So with coding you can set, well all of course, but most interesting, 3 and 4. The temp you want to be the needle in the middle and than most importantly, at what temp you want the needle to come out of the middle. Not when the engine is already cooking.

So with some playing around you can make it pretty much unbuffered.
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Old Wed, Jul-06-2016, 02:01:10 PM   #23
M_Parallel
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Default Re: OEM Plus Eurospec M3 Build

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Originally Posted by _JohnnyD_ View Post
Typically lower temp thermostats and fan temp switches are used to compensate for a removing the clutched fan. I don't plan on doing that.

I also don't live in an extremely hot climate and don't plan on taking the car to the track.

The risk for me would be that the engine doesn't hit full operating temps on short drives.


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Same here. I wouldn't change it with the clutch fan in place. Neither if I would track it or being in a hot climate. 100 degrees is 100 degrees nontheless. The only thing is that the temp would be reached sooner, but at the same time, the fan would kick in sooner as well, so it doens't matter.
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Old Wed, Jul-06-2016, 10:00:09 PM   #24
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Default Re: OEM Plus Eurospec M3 Build

Whatever is going on with the gauges the car can not heat up to operating temperature in 60 seconds. If that's what your car is telling you it's doing something is wrong.
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Old Wed, Jul-06-2016, 10:37:39 PM   #25
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Default Re: OEM Plus Eurospec M3 Build

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Originally Posted by M_Parallel View Post
Same here. I wouldn't change it with the clutch fan in place. Neither if I would track it or being in a hot climate. 100 degrees is 100 degrees nontheless. The only thing is that the temp would be reached sooner, but at the same time, the fan would kick in sooner as well, so it doens't matter.
Ok lets go through the cooling system operation.

The thermostat determines engine operating temperature, not the fans. The only reason you have a fan, either electric or clutch, it to get airflow OVER the radiator; even the clutch fan will free spin if the temperature is too low for its predetermined engagement point, of which an electric fan is no different

The sender is at the cool (supply) side of the radiator, so what it is sensing is NOT the engine temperature as per what the gauge/ECU, but rather the coolest part of the system. So if the coolest part of the system is getting hot enough to engage at 90°C, you can guarantee the engine is easily 20°C above that, consequently at 99°C it will be substantially hotter.

Even here in 36°C days it does not come on all the time, and generally will only come on after sitting for over 5/10mins with no airflow over the radiator. So what this does is allow airflow over the radiator sooner than it would otherwise when the air is stagnant. Clutch fans do the same job obviously, but it helps augment the clutch fan (which may not be in peak operating condition as it is >20yrs old) in allowing more airflow over the radiator when air is too hot (when aircon condenser is operating generating a lot of heat) or when it is not enough to dissipate heat over the radiator.

It will NOT make the engine run cooler, thats not a fans job, but it will allow better airflow over the radiator for the rest of the system to operate efficiently when it is required.

Forget all about M5x cooling systems, the S engine systems are a much better design
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Old Wed, Jul-06-2016, 10:51:47 PM   #26
M_Parallel
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Default Re: OEM Plus Eurospec M3 Build

Yes I'm aware with how the system operates, but still, if BMW is fine with sticking an x degrees temp switch at the cool site and knowing themselves that it means the engine outlet temp is 20 degrees higher,there must be a reason those engineers chose a 91/99°C for this engine.
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Old Wed, Jul-06-2016, 11:47:37 PM   #27
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Default Re: OEM Plus Eurospec M3 Build

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Originally Posted by M_Parallel View Post
Yes I'm aware with how the system operates, but still, if BMW is fine with sticking an x degrees temp switch at the cool site and knowing themselves that it means the engine outlet temp is 20 degrees higher,there must be a reason those engineers chose a 91/99°C for this engine.
They were also designing a brand new car that operated at peak efficiency from new, not a 20yo engine.

I'll not get into a pissing match, but it works, it may only be up to 5°C on the seperate VDO at normal op range when not in motion, on 6 cars i can attest to (2x 3.0 and 4x 3.2s, 5 having clutch fans)

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1996 Evo S50B32 - Boston Green on Modena - Slicktop - Al doors - PDC - JBR 5kg F/W - Clutchmasters FX400 - Mason SS Clutch pedal - UUC Evo3 SSK w/DSSR - PWR radiator - DrVanos o/haul - Full AKG 75D bushing & mount set - AP delete - Fan delete - X-brace - BC Racing C/Os 8k/10k - Whiteline 27mm ARB - ARC8 17x8.5 - Nitto NT01 - APEX 75mm stud - Walbro GSS342 - Schroth Harness - TMS rear control arms - Hawk HP+ pads - GT splitter - GT 4pc wing - Momo Monte Carlo - Racechrono TS - RaceDAC - RR Strut Brace - Proflow PS res + AN lines - VDO gaugeset - E46 330 rack - VAC oil pump upgrade - ARP conrod bolts - Magnaflow spun cats - MAC Motoren Airbox - AlphaN - ATI/VAC HB - 3.91 210 -
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Old Thu, Jul-07-2016, 01:02:45 AM   #28
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Default Re: OEM Plus Eurospec M3 Build

All of this debate is great but I'm with MParallel and sticking to the original BMW specs. BMW engineers have to factor in engine temps at all outside conditions (including very cold), electrical loads of the fan and the fan duty cycles and durability. The fan switch works fine so I won't replace it.

I might change the coolant temp sensor but I don't think it will make a difference.

[quote=Kirbius;1067450647]Remember to get the two 38x2.5 orings (i think, double check that)]

You are right about 38x2.5 orings BUT I think they are discontinued. I could only find 38x3.0 orings used on the E46 S54.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirbius View Post
Valves clearances, Beisen kit, vac hoses etc on the cards if the maint history is unknown

I plan on doing the valves, vanos, and timing chain tensioner in the winter.

Regarding the vacuum hoses. Are they a standard size? Can I buy a few feet of silicon hose and replace it all? Or do I need to buy the BMW stuff?


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Old Thu, Jul-07-2016, 01:27:35 AM   #29
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Default Re: OEM Plus Eurospec M3 Build

[quote=_JohnnyD_;1067451427]All of this debate is great but I'm with MParallel and sticking to the original BMW specs. BMW engineers have to factor in engine temps at all outside conditions (including very cold), electrical loads of the fan and the fan duty cycles and durability. The fan switch works fine so I won't replace it.

I might change the coolant temp sensor but I don't think it will make a difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirbius View Post
Remember to get the two 38x2.5 orings (i think, double check that)]

You are right about 38x2.5 orings BUT I think they are discontinued. I could only find 38x3.0 orings used on the E46 S54.




I plan on doing the valves, vanos, and timing chain tensioner in the winter.

Regarding the vacuum hoses. Are they a standard size? Can I buy a few feet of silicon hose and replace it all? Or do I need to buy the BMW stuff?


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Yeah it was just food for thought re the sensor.

You can get the orings from any decent hydraulic shop - they are quite a tight fit and 3mm *might* make it difficult to get it back together, but try it anyway.

Get the updated design tensioner (yours is probably the old style) and unfortunately you'll have to get OE hoses as they are shaped; (assuming not changed previously) definitely the oil/air seperator hoses as the airbox one will be all soft and shitty and engine side is probably cracked open, and the drain is more than likely blocked. Grab some 1/4" standard vac hose for the SAP control gear, esp for #6 TB. Its not terribly expensive to get it back up to speed, so don't freak out

Honestly if you want a load of example photos and/or a parts list, PM and i can send via email/fb or whatevers easiest
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1996 Evo S50B32 - Boston Green on Modena - Slicktop - Al doors - PDC - JBR 5kg F/W - Clutchmasters FX400 - Mason SS Clutch pedal - UUC Evo3 SSK w/DSSR - PWR radiator - DrVanos o/haul - Full AKG 75D bushing & mount set - AP delete - Fan delete - X-brace - BC Racing C/Os 8k/10k - Whiteline 27mm ARB - ARC8 17x8.5 - Nitto NT01 - APEX 75mm stud - Walbro GSS342 - Schroth Harness - TMS rear control arms - Hawk HP+ pads - GT splitter - GT 4pc wing - Momo Monte Carlo - Racechrono TS - RaceDAC - RR Strut Brace - Proflow PS res + AN lines - VDO gaugeset - E46 330 rack - VAC oil pump upgrade - ARP conrod bolts - Magnaflow spun cats - MAC Motoren Airbox - AlphaN - ATI/VAC HB - 3.91 210 -
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Old Thu, Jul-07-2016, 09:51:46 AM   #30
M_Parallel
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Default Re: OEM Plus Eurospec M3 Build

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They were also designing a brand new car that operated at peak efficiency from new, not a 20yo engine. ...
Ok this one I don't understand?

Also, what pissing contest? This was a serious debate about why BMW chose that and if it would really matter.

I didn't see any mines larger than yours comments!?
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Discussing OEM Plus Eurospec M3 Build in the E36 M3 (1992-1999) Forum - {Euro - S50 B32 321hp @ 7400 rpm} {U.S. - S52 B32 240 hp @ 6000 rpm}
Total Produced: 71,212 - Years Produced: 1992 to 1999 at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)