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Old Sun, Jul-08-2018, 02:47:06 PM   #11
ThunderMoose
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Default Re: What pulls timing on the S54?

FWIW - I have the same set up you except for having BW exhaust. I only make 331 rwhp. The engine is solid - clean - <1% leak down on all cylinders. I have not reviewed timing though. Since I run in a wt/hp class, I really don't need or want any more power, but am interested to know what you learn. I also run Epic tune.
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Old Sun, Jul-08-2018, 06:54:19 PM   #12
10speed
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Default Re: What pulls timing on the S54?

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Originally Posted by ThunderMoose View Post
FWIW - I have the same set up you except for having BW exhaust. I only make 331 rwhp. The engine is solid - clean - <1% leak down on all cylinders. I have not reviewed timing though. Since I run in a wt/hp class, I really don't need or want any more power, but am interested to know what you learn. I also run Epic tune.
Randy did mention the OEM plentum with 4" pipe is a strong combination. I just figured the Evolve airbox was worth something more than it. After he started dialing in the tune he mentioned the car was not reacting properly with the timing he was trying to give it. After 7 dyno runs, the above is what we got. That's why it seems like something just isn't right.

I suppose it's time for a leak down test on this motor.
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Old Sun, Jul-08-2018, 07:15:46 PM   #13
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Default Re: What pulls timing on the S54?

Do you have a way of monitoring knock sensor activity? Also IAT and coolant temps. Most ECUs will pull timing for at least those three things. It's possible that something loose in your exhaust system or elsewhere on the engine is causing vibration that the knock sensors are picking up.

The slight VE increase from an airbox shouldn't make you that much more knock limited that you have to pull out 3 degrees of spark so I suspect something else is going on here. Were any changes made to vanos timing? I've experienced pretty significant changes in knock sensitivity on some engines when changing exhaust cam phasing. I've never calibrated an S54 but if you have logs I'd be willing to take a look and let you know if anything stands out.
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Old Sun, Jul-08-2018, 08:05:58 PM   #14
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Default Re: What pulls timing on the S54?

Would be great to log the knock sensors. I recall someone doing that on the forum here.

IAT and coolant temps were logged in BMWlogger. 80 IAT 2-3 degrees higher than ambient. Coolant temps were around 160f - 170f. Is that perhaps too cool?

I’ll listen around to the engine again under load to see if any noises stand out. The motor has harder BW group n motor mounts but they do seem to cause any extreme vibrations under load.

I don’t believe any changes where made to vanos timing to cause this. Basically made 325 on previous mods, added the airbox and made less power.
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Old Sun, Jul-08-2018, 08:44:06 PM   #15
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Default Re: What pulls timing on the S54?

160 to 170f coolant temp sounds a tad bit low, but I'm not sure if there is anything in the MSS54 controls that would retard spark before reaching full operating temperature. Typically some ECU controls will begin retarding spark as coolant temps climb above a calibrated operating range and the engine becomes more knock sensitive but that doesn't sound like it's the case here.

80f IAT doesn't sound like anything crazy, unless the previous dyno run was done on a much colder day.

So you are saying that the tune didn't change at all when you switched to the new airbox? Do you have wideband O2 readings? You were previously running alpha-n with the stock airbox, and then you switched to a carbon airbox and did not change the tune at all and you are seeing lower power numbers?
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Old Mon, Jul-09-2018, 04:06:09 AM   #16
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Default Re: What pulls timing on the S54?

is it possible to disable or desensitise the knock sensors just to test whether timing is getting pulled because of them?
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Old Mon, Jul-09-2018, 04:14:23 AM   #17
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Default Re: What pulls timing on the S54?

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160 to 170f coolant temp sounds a tad bit low, but I'm not sure if there is anything in the MSS54 controls that would retard spark before reaching full operating temperature. Typically some ECU controls will begin retarding spark as coolant temps climb above a calibrated operating range and the engine becomes more knock sensitive but that doesn't sound like it's the case here.

80f IAT doesn't sound like anything crazy, unless the previous dyno run was done on a much colder day.

So you are saying that the tune didn't change at all when you switched to the new airbox? Do you have wideband O2 readings? You were previously running alpha-n with the stock airbox, and then you switched to a carbon airbox and did not change the tune at all and you are seeing lower power numbers?
My best numbers 325/245 was done a few years ago, 55 degrees ambient.
Current numbers 321/248 were made at about 75 degrees ambient on the same dyno. Both times, the car was remote tuned on the dyno by Epic. To answer your question, I added the airbox and had it remote dyno tuned on the smae dyno. No wideband O2 readings. Just AFR from a sniffer in the exhaust pipe.
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Old Mon, Jul-09-2018, 01:19:33 PM   #18
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Default Re: What pulls timing on the S54?

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is it possible to disable or desensitise the knock sensors just to test whether timing is getting pulled because of them?
So you are suggesting disabling knock sensors and adding spark and just letting it knock? How are you going to determine if it's knocking, and if so, what the knock intensity is? I'm accustomed to calibrating fully instrumented engines with in cylinder pressure transducers, so the minimal amount of data we have in this situation already makes it difficult to determine what's going on, and removing a critical sensor sounds like a pretty bad idea.
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Old Mon, Jul-09-2018, 01:22:15 PM   #19
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Default Re: What pulls timing on the S54?

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My best numbers 325/245 was done a few years ago, 55 degrees ambient.
Current numbers 321/248 were made at about 75 degrees ambient on the same dyno. Both times, the car was remote tuned on the dyno by Epic. To answer your question, I added the airbox and had it remote dyno tuned on the smae dyno. No wideband O2 readings. Just AFR from a sniffer in the exhaust pipe.
55 vs 75 degrees will make a slight difference in knock sensitivity, but in my experience it isn't enough to make a change of 3 deg of timing.
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Old Mon, Jul-09-2018, 04:55:43 PM   #20
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Default Re: What pulls timing on the S54?

I'd be curious what the car does if you use higher octane fuel. If the car suddenly starts hitting targets, it probably means you *are* riding the knock sensor..
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