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M3 Track: Racing and DE Best mod for speed is learning to get the most out of what you currently have. Tracks and DE's is the place to start!


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Old Mon, Nov-04-2013, 12:53:50 AM   #21
eljay
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Default Re: Minimizing understeer without square setup (ZCP wheels)

Well, the end of season has come and while I did look for rear ZCPs, I couldn't find any for a reasonable price. So, while I'm keeping that option open, I'm going back to my question from July: if I get a set of square rear OEM 18" wheels, would their extra weight be detrimental to track/autocross purposes? I think I'd be adding ~3 pounds of unsprung weight at every corner compared to 19" ZCPs.
I would love to get a set of ARC-8s, but at around $1300 without tires, it would be too much considering I need to leave some budget for a suspension refresh this winter and a set of tires for the next season. Even with the extra weight of the OEM 18" wheels, I should still be much better off if I go to 265/35/18 tires with some camber, correct?
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Old Fri, Nov-08-2013, 12:49:26 AM   #22
Khal
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Default Re: Minimizing understeer without square setup (ZCP wheels)

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Originally Posted by eljay View Post
Well, the end of season has come and while I did look for rear ZCPs, I couldn't find any for a reasonable price. So, while I'm keeping that option open, I'm going back to my question from July: if I get a set of square rear OEM 18" wheels, would their extra weight be detrimental to track/autocross purposes? I think I'd be adding ~3 pounds of unsprung weight at every corner compared to 19" ZCPs.
I would love to get a set of ARC-8s, but at around $1300 without tires, it would be too much considering I need to leave some budget for a suspension refresh this winter and a set of tires for the next season. Even with the extra weight of the OEM 18" wheels, I should still be much better off if I go to 265/35/18 tires with some camber, correct?
So, you're trying to reduce understeer by only changing wheels and running a square setup? I'd be very careful doing this. You're going against the car design. Correcting understeer on an E46 M3 is not too hard, but not as simple as putting stickier/larger tires upfront. Running slicks upfront and street in the back... you'll be on ice skates for a few laps until the fronts warm up and have way too much traction on rears. Guess what's going to happen...
Ask a competent mechanic with experience on track setup for an M3, everything I've heard states that you must adjust the suspension before moving to a square setup. I've read a fair number of blogs of guys who were trying to do everything themselves without enough information, resulting in an undriveable car (either for street or track) and thus thinking the E46 M3 was a poor track car... it could not be any further from the truth.
Don't take this lightly, especially if you're going to use this setup for both street and track. You could easily wreck your car.
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Old Fri, Nov-08-2013, 02:11:44 AM   #23
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Default Re: Minimizing understeer without square setup (ZCP wheels)

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Originally Posted by Khal View Post
So, you're trying to reduce understeer by only changing wheels and running a square setup? I'd be very careful doing this. You're going against the car design. Correcting understeer on an E46 M3 is not too hard, but not as simple as putting stickier/larger tires upfront. Running slicks upfront and street in the back... you'll be on ice skates for a few laps until the fronts warm up and have way too much traction on rears. Guess what's going to happen...
Ask a competent mechanic with experience on track setup for an M3, everything I've heard states that you must adjust the suspension before moving to a square setup. I've read a fair number of blogs of guys who were trying to do everything themselves without enough information, resulting in an undriveable car (either for street or track) and thus thinking the E46 M3 was a poor track car... it could not be any further from the truth.
Don't take this lightly, especially if you're going to use this setup for both street and track. You could easily wreck your car.
Don't worry, I'm not just slapping wide tires up front and going off to a time attack. And I never said that I'm planning to put slicks upfront and street tires in the back.
I know that, at a minimum, I'd have to adjust camber.
And I will be changing my suspension as I mentioned as it's getting tired at 83k miles. I'll actually make a separate thread to gain input and answers on an optimal setup for next year, so I can spend the winter months hunting down the parts and setup knowledge and get everything lined up for the spring.

Above, I was just looking to see if I running square heavy OEM 18x9" will be detrimental due to their weight or whether I should forget the wheel weight issue and find a set anyway to get myself to a square setup quickly.
I wish I could afford a set of Apex wheels, but that will not happen for a while.
Again, I appreciate the advice and you do make good points that I will certainly follow.
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Old Fri, Nov-08-2013, 05:05:30 AM   #24
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Default Re: Minimizing understeer without square setup (ZCP wheels)

ok great.
I know ppl here who are very competitive and use the OEM 18" wheels for Time Trial. They're actually nice wheels for the track, albeit a tad heavy (the standard BBS are just as heavy, mind you. You'd pay 10x more for those to get a "BBS" sticker).
So definitely not an issue to use those, it will work.

Think about one thing... the tires you'll mount on these will be heavier than the wheels (~24lbs for wheels, a Direzza ZII 275/35/18 is about 30lbs). Aggressive R-comps (Z214, Hoosiers, Toyo RRs) will be ~5lbs lighter, so it's another area to save weight.
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Old Fri, Nov-08-2013, 07:45:30 AM   #25
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Default Re: Minimizing understeer without square setup (ZCP wheels)

please dont minimize rear grip to solve front understeer, that is a bad option.

to solve understeer ud wanna induce more camber and run bigger tyres or harder front rollbar.

btw. this thread doesnt deserve to be in this section frankly. if you plan to track u would immediately know the answer to your question.
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Old Fri, Nov-08-2013, 02:00:25 PM   #26
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Default Re: Minimizing understeer without square setup (ZCP wheels)

I was recently forced to run couple HPDE sessions on street tires (stock sizes hankook v12) on a track, since I corded my r-comps.

The car handled pretty much fine that way, it just doesn't have the ultimate overall grip. -3.8 camber up front, hotchkis swaybar medium setting.
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Old Fri, Nov-08-2013, 02:58:46 PM   #27
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Default Re: Minimizing understeer without square setup (ZCP wheels)

Quote:
Originally Posted by eljay View Post
Well, the end of season has come and while I did look for rear ZCPs, I couldn't find any for a reasonable price. So, while I'm keeping that option open, I'm going back to my question from July: if I get a set of square rear OEM 18" wheels, would their extra weight be detrimental to track/autocross purposes? I think I'd be adding ~3 pounds of unsprung weight at every corner compared to 19" ZCPs.
I would love to get a set of ARC-8s, but at around $1300 without tires, it would be too much considering I need to leave some budget for a suspension refresh this winter and a set of tires for the next season. Even with the extra weight of the OEM 18" wheels, I should still be much better off if I go to 265/35/18 tires with some camber, correct?
I don't know..

You are worried about costs and you want to run 19 on the track?

Track days go through tires like if there is no tomorrow. You can pay for 17 arc8 in a single season just by the difference vs 19 tires

There is a 20% difference in 17 and 18 tires. I'd bet the difference is even bigger with 19

Nothing says baller like running 19' at the track
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Old Fri, Nov-08-2013, 03:00:49 PM   #28
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Default Re: Minimizing understeer without square setup (ZCP wheels)

OP, for suspension I would do something simple like the bilstein b12 kit.

Pointless to get full out track suspension being a noobie
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Old Fri, Nov-08-2013, 03:12:34 PM   #29
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Default Re: Minimizing understeer without square setup (ZCP wheels)

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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
OP, for suspension I would do something simple like the bilstein b12 kit.

Pointless to get full out track suspension being a noobie
I dunno. It's expensive to dilly dally around with "intermediate" mods imo. If you enjoy tracking the car and plan to continue doing so go ahead and get a good track suspension the first time.
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Discussing Minimizing understeer without square setup (ZCP wheels) in the M3 Track: Racing and DE Forum - Best mod for speed is learning to get the most out of what you currently have. Tracks and DE's is the place to start! at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)