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E46 M3 (2001-2006) Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006.


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Old Mon, May-22-2017, 07:30:40 PM   #21
VinceSE2
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Default Re: Introducing the VinceSkinz (subframe plates)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psiddy81 View Post
Morning Vince,

I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts regarding the reason for choosing 1mm thick material. Additionally thoughts on introducing all the rivet holes into the panel to attach the plates.

In my experience the minimum material thickness to allow forces to be dissipated effectively is 2mm.

Additionally in aerospace repair, where my engineering background lies we always avoid introducing more holes or possible failure points into panels by using rivets. I appreaciate that the patches are to be epoxied as well but I'd be concerned with that many new failure points for the rivet holes.

Please don't think this is a critisism, I am very impressed with your Vince bar solution, just wanted to know your reasoning behind the material thickness and rivet application.

Thanks.

Hey Pete!

If the plate alone is to dissipate the load to the area surrounding it I believe you may be right that 2mm thickness is required to effectively do so.

The purpose of this design is to tightly bond the 1mm plate/skin to the RACP skin and have them work as one. That should make the area surrounding the mount at least twice as strong given it's now a laminated.

Also, in order to reasonably be able to form the sheet metal as tightly as I want, 1mm works well.

The fact that I want to avoid large steps in thickness, and thus avoid stress concentrations, has also contributed to the choice of 1mm sheet metal.

And as we have the benefit (compared to the BMW engineers who originally designed this) of seeing where the failures occur, I've chosen to mildly improve the weak spots (where it's stretched thin, and where the cracks typically occur) of the skin. Rather than going for a thick plate. The factory design has after all held up rather long.

At the front right mount I recently verified that the base plate of the threaded receiver does in fact have a (rather large actually) recessed area that partly lies within the subframe bushings contact patch.

Heres the recessed area (picture taken from atop)


And here I've mapped it (hatched)to the outside of the mounting area


The thicker red segment on the red circle represents the factory bushings lip. The blue poly line is the typical path of the crack as seen below





This void makes the very thin RACP skin, rather than the stronger base plate, take the load in that area. With the OE bushing it's especially bad since the right most lip punches into the void right next to the infamous spot weld.

And as this void creates a weak spot I'm recommending filling it with epoxy (prior to applying the skin which has no hole there)as part of the installation procedure





In addition, these skins are meant to complement the VinceBar kit.
And with the VinceBar kit present, the forces to both the rear and the front mounts, that need to be dissipated to the lower RACP skin, are significantly lower/less.

And finally, if one feels that one would still prefer something thicker than 1mm, the design offers a multi layer option.
Multiple layers is more expensive than one thicker layer, but it retains the tight fit etc, while it also further improves the thickness/stress gradient and the laminate principle.

The rivets are mostly there to tightly clamp the two skins together to achieve the desired laminate.

I use steel (not stainless) rivets that are (not sure of the correct terminology here) high clamping in order to have them not only tightly fill the holes, but also provide a tightly fitting reinforcement ring (flange? Again not sure what it's called.

The rivet to the left is a standard steel rivet. The one to the right is the kind I'm using.


So although the rivet holes aren't ideal, I believe, between the epoxy and the this type of rivet, it should be mitigated

I admit I may have gone a bit overboard with the number of rivets, but I really don't want the skin to bulge up at the edges or otherwise, and thus get the epoxy layer too thick there. That would weaken the epoxy bond.

I guess I'll be fine tuning the amount of rivets and their placements over time. Hopefully with the help of Namniek, perhaps yourself, and others whom have the knowledge in this community.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Namniek View Post
Not sure where/with which airframes your background lies but structural repairs installed with rivets are pretty standard for sheet metal repairs.



I do agree that improperly placed and drilled fastener holes can create issues. Things I would be concerned about are:

-Type of fastener

-Material of fastener

-Fastener location (not located in a radius)

I'd very much appreciate if you could give me some rivet placement feedback and guidance off line!

Quote:
Originally Posted by qualicas View Post
Vince

I thought I was the only one with the idea of epoxy and rivets. I agree with your thinking. A couple of years ago I was at the SEMA show and talked quite a bit with 3M about various epoxys. "Gluing" and riveting cars together these days is the coming thing.

4 or 5 years ago I repaired my E36 M3 rear shock mounts with 3/16 stainless rivets. To day it is still perfect. Only thing about stainless rivets is you do need an air powered riveter to pull them!
Yes, as far as I know cost has held this back so far. A spot weld is instant and easily automated, while epoxy needs to cure and rivets are probably harder to automate.








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Old Mon, May-22-2017, 08:12:28 PM   #22
CrookedCommie
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Default Re: Introducing the VinceSkinz (subframe plates)

Drilling and riveting the subframe floor to avoid it cracking and separating seems backwardass to me, but what do I know, I'm not an engineer.
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Old Mon, May-22-2017, 09:29:41 PM   #23
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Default Re: Introducing the VinceSkinz (subframe plates)

Thanks for creating this awesome product Vince! Was there an estimated timeline of when your groupbuy may be? Any chance you could set up a mix and match group buy or a package of vinceskinz + vincebar?
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Old Mon, May-22-2017, 09:32:44 PM   #24
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Default Re: Introducing the VinceSkinz (subframe plates)

Vince, do we need this if we go with the VinceBar? Coming from a perspective of no reinforcement done at all and wanting to do it as a preventative measure.
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Old Tue, May-23-2017, 01:13:03 AM   #25
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Default Re: Introducing the VinceSkinz (subframe plates)

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Originally Posted by CrookedCommie View Post
Drilling and riveting the subframe floor to avoid it cracking and separating seems backwardass to me, but what do I know, I'm not an engineer.
Don't forget the rivets are holding a reinforcing plate in position so the epoxy can hold. This will distribute loads evenly across the entire surface area of the reinforcing plate. If one compares this to welding, the welding is around the perimeter plus a few plug welds. As well, the native material is something like 0.030 thick hardened steel. So welding might cause reduced strength in the heat affected areas. Lastly, it is very hard to weld upside down and never blow through. (The guy that welded my stainless exhaust could do it but very few others would be good enough) Oh wait this is really last, much easier to start rust at the welds unless well coated.

I like stainless rivets as they would be less likely to cause cathodic corrosion than straight steel, they don't rust and they are next to no more money.
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Old Tue, May-23-2017, 06:26:42 PM   #26
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Default Re: Introducing the VinceSkinz (subframe plates)

In for a group buy
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Old Tue, May-23-2017, 06:53:09 PM   #27
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Default Re: Introducing the VinceSkinz (subframe plates)

Can't wait for these! Hey Vince please check your messages as I sent one a few weeks back. But I'm glad to see this big update on the plates.
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Old Sun, Jul-09-2017, 11:44:35 PM   #28
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Default Re: Introducing the VinceSkinz (subframe plates)

Vince do you have a timeframe for the release of the skinz? I'm looking to buy a Vince bar, but want to time the purchase with their release.
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Old Sun, Jul-16-2017, 11:18:52 PM   #29
VinceSE2
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Default Re: Introducing the VinceSkinz (subframe plates)

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Originally Posted by Cmda17 View Post
Vince do you have a timeframe for the release of the skinz? I'm looking to buy a Vince bar, but want to time the purchase with their release.


Sorry about the rather late response!

I've started selling a revised version (more coverage and less rivets) of the Stage 1 skinz.

The Stage 2's are nearly done, but are on hold a bit as I need to complete a couple of SMG relocation kits for those who will be testing them in hot climate (seasonal urgency).

So shoot me a PM and we'll work it out together.

Vince


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Old Wed, Jul-26-2017, 11:26:19 PM   #30
VinceSE2
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Default Re: Introducing the VinceSkinz (subframe plates)

Wanted to share a few pics of the revised Stage 1 skinz.

I just finished making a batch of eight sets by hand and will not make any more before I get the plates laser cut. It took me about 5 days to make these...

Anyway, the revised skinz have a bit more coverage, mostly the front left (to avoid rivets in the radius) and the width of the "lips" on the rear skinz, while I also reduced the amount of rivets based on the feedback.

Left rear



Right rear



Left front



Right front



The spacers



I hope you like them!




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Discussing Introducing the VinceSkinz (subframe plates) in the E46 M3 (2001-2006) Forum - Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006. at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)