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E46 M3 (2001-2006) Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006.


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Old Sat, Apr-15-2017, 04:05:11 PM   #11
bigjae1976
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Default Re: 4 clutch machineless unsprung LSD

Quote:
Originally Posted by tikamak View Post
Yes 1500 is a more realistic estimation.
I wanted to mention the expertise in setting up the diff should be considered. So there could be additional machine work, tear downs, experimentation, an testing. There's also a risk of a mistake. If the application is for track use...track time to test gets expensive quickly (fees, fuel, tires, travel, etc.).

Sometimes, shelling out $3500 for a built diff is worth the extra money. For those of us who are curious and WANT to DIY it...not an issue.

I think this option is a terrible one for someone who just wants to upgrade their diff on the cheap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tikamak View Post
If you use the stock motorsport gears 3.64 u dont need the shims and you get all the parts u need from thayer motorsports
Please expand on this? Interested.
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Old Sun, Apr-16-2017, 05:57:12 AM   #12
tikamak
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Default Re: 4 clutch machineless unsprung LSD

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
I wanted to mention the expertise in setting up the diff should be considered. So there could be additional machine work, tear downs, experimentation, an testing. There's also a risk of a mistake. If the application is for track use...track time to test gets expensive quickly (fees, fuel, tires, travel, etc.).

Sometimes, shelling out $3500 for a built diff is worth the extra money. For those of us who are curious and WANT to DIY it...not an issue.

I think this option is a terrible one for someone who just wants to upgrade their diff on the cheap.



Please expand on this? Interested.
The cost of testing what you built is going to be applied on any type of LSD you choose.

Expanding on the BMW ZF LSD:
1- you need to source a typ 210 ZF 2-clutch LSD. E32 750, e28 535,M5 e34 M5, e39 M5 and the old 6 series have this big case 8 bolt 210 LSD
2- you strip down the unit and removve the gears
3- you machine the LSD carrier bolt holes from 12 to 14mm in order for it to accept your e46 M3 motorsport gears
4- you order a new rebuild kit from thayer motorsport either the refresh kit 2 clutch or the 4 clutch without springs no preload kit (thats the original purpose of this thread)
5- you bolt everything back up while using you original gears and the shims that came with them, there will be no need to adjust backlash also no need to change the pinion bearing or even go near that area, you will only need to change the carrier bearings and seals and get e36 m3 3.2 euro output flanges which is the same as used on e34 m5 for example or e28 m5. Or u can just buy them from somewhere if you want to have nice new clean parts that you dont want to clean yourself.



If youd like to have more information please post here.

I did a 3 clutch lsd for a friend of mine that i can post its pics in the next post.
Working with diffs is relatively easy, you just need the curiosity to fetch the information and understand the concept
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Old Sun, Apr-16-2017, 06:47:26 AM   #13
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Default Re: 4 clutch machineless unsprung LSD



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Old Sun, Apr-16-2017, 11:16:47 AM   #14
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Default Re: 4 clutch machineless unsprung LSD

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Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
I wanted to mention the expertise in setting up the diff should be considered.......
No doubt. I had Dan at www.DiffsOnline.com install my Drexler in the case so I knew there would be no issues. He did, as always, an exemplary job.

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Old Sun, Apr-16-2017, 02:36:06 PM   #15
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Default Re: 4 clutch machineless unsprung LSD

Quote:
Originally Posted by tikamak View Post
The cost of testing what you built is going to be applied on any type of LSD you choose.



Expanding on the BMW ZF LSD:

1- you need to source a typ 210 ZF 2-clutch LSD. E32 750, e28 535,M5 e34 M5, e39 M5 and the old 6 series have this big case 8 bolt 210 LSD

2- you strip down the unit and removve the gears

3- you machine the LSD carrier bolt holes from 12 to 14mm in order for it to accept your e46 M3 motorsport gears

4- you order a new rebuild kit from thayer motorsport either the refresh kit 2 clutch or the 4 clutch without springs no preload kit (thats the original purpose of this thread)

5- you bolt everything back up while using you original gears and the shims that came with them, there will be no need to adjust backlash also no need to change the pinion bearing or even go near that area, you will only need to change the carrier bearings and seals and get e36 m3 3.2 euro output flanges which is the same as used on e34 m5 for example or e28 m5. Or u can just buy them from somewhere if you want to have nice new clean parts that you dont want to clean yourself.







If youd like to have more information please post here.



I did a 3 clutch lsd for a friend of mine that i can post its pics in the next post.

Working with diffs is relatively easy, you just need the curiosity to fetch the information and understand the concept

Awesome post!

Couple of questions if you don't mind...

Any reason to change the pinion bearing as preventive maintenance?

Can you add some preload to this LSD unit?

Can you cut down 2 E46 M3 long side shafts...like OS Giken specs in their instructions?


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Old Sun, Apr-16-2017, 03:24:33 PM   #16
tikamak
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Default Re: 4 clutch machineless unsprung LSD

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
Awesome post!

Couple of questions if you don't mind...

Any reason to change the pinion bearing as preventive maintenance?

Can you add some preload to this LSD unit?

Can you cut down 2 E46 M3 long side shafts...like OS Giken specs in their instructions?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You could do that if the bearings are worn. Its just that in this case it will be a little more complicated. U will have to remove the old bearings and get a new crush sleeve and set the pinion bearing preload. Ofc u still use the same pinion shim since u are using the same gear and pinion which still qualifies as an easy job overall.

In terms of preload, i am assuming in my answer that you are talking about the lsd static preload. If yes? Then you need to tell me which kit from thayer u want to use ? 2 clutch or 4 clutch ? Or my 3 clutch setup ?


Please be my guest ask any question u like. Id love to answer and transfer knowledge across this board as it seems like uncharted territory
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Old Sun, Apr-16-2017, 04:10:57 PM   #17
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Default Re: 4 clutch machineless unsprung LSD

Quote:
Originally Posted by tikamak View Post
You could do that if the bearings are worn. Its just that in this case it will be a little more complicated. U will have to remove the old bearings and get a new crush sleeve and set the pinion bearing preload. Ofc u still use the same pinion shim since u are using the same gear and pinion which still qualifies as an easy job overall.

In terms of preload, i am assuming in my answer that you are talking about the lsd static preload. If yes? Then you need to tell me which kit from thayer u want to use ? 2 clutch or 4 clutch ? Or my 3 clutch setup ?


Please be my guest ask any question u like. Id love to answer and transfer knowledge across this board as it seems like uncharted territory


Yes...static LSD preload. I was looking at the Thayer kit for an all around motorsports car (HPDE, TT, Auto-X, and drifting). Thoughts? I think from my research that some low level of static pre-load would add some crispness to the rear axle on turn in.
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Old Sun, Apr-16-2017, 04:27:06 PM   #18
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Default Re: 4 clutch machineless unsprung LSD

It's been years, but my contribution to this topic is that a pro diff shop can replace the pinion and crush and set backlash for a very small amount of money so this portion of the project is inconsequential from a cost perspective. For me this was $180.

So, if you can get the LSD unti itself built and ready to go for cheap then having the "diff" professionally assembled is cheap/no brainier.
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Old Sun, Apr-16-2017, 04:27:37 PM   #19
tikamak
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Default Re: 4 clutch machineless unsprung LSD

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post


Yes...static LSD preload. I was looking at the Thayer kit for an all around motorsports car (HPDE, TT, Auto-X, and drifting). Thoughts? I think from my research that some low level of static pre-load would add some crispness to the rear axle on turn in.
Yes a little preload is nice to have a smooth locking pattern.

Concerning the e46 m3 long output flanges, os giken tells you to use 2 long e46 m output flanges ?? Ive never thought about it, is the e46 m3 out flange the long one the same as euro 3.2 m3 ?

U could do what i did and machine the carrier cap and fit a 3rd clutch pack. It comes down to your precise calculation. I could help with that.

Though the stock preload is like 120 ft.lbs which is insanely high but some people like this. Drifters for example
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Old Sun, Apr-16-2017, 04:35:22 PM   #20
tikamak
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Default Re: 4 clutch machineless unsprung LSD

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricSMG View Post
It's been years, but my contribution to this topic is that a pro diff shop can replace the pinion and crush and set backlash for a very small amount of money so this portion of the project is inconsequential from a cost perspective. For me this was $180.

So, if you can get the LSD unti itself built and ready to go for cheap then having the "diff" professionally assembled is cheap/no brainier.
Assembling a custom diff is not difficult if you can source the proper clutch and steel plate thickness.

Luckily you could just buy the complete set from thayer without worrying about calculations. I assume they use 2.0 mm clutches and 2.1 steel plates or maybe 2.0mm steel plates. Which lets you fit 4 clutch packs without springs and zero preload.
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Discussing 4 clutch machineless unsprung LSD in the E46 M3 (2001-2006) Forum - Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006. at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)