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E46 M3 (2001-2006) Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006.


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Old Fri, Apr-14-2017, 05:37:27 AM   #41
bimmerdriver
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Default Re: Aftermarket front sway bar: worth it?

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Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
I don't understand why less body roll ("cornering flatter") is considered an upgrade

Mid corner do you want more or less negative camber on your outside wheel? Overall, do you prefer a car with solid axles or independent suspension?

Unless you're running out of travel, I don't see flatter as better... and if you are, there's probably other places you should be looking to address that.
It's common knowledge that sway bars keep the car flatter which preserves suspension geometry, keeps the tires in better contact with the road and makes the car more responsive, because you don't have to wait as long for the weight transfer. Any decent handling vehicle has sway bars to reduce body roll. With all due respect, your comment about solid axles is trolling. Sway bars are not solid. They flex. You know that, or at least you should.
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Old Fri, Apr-14-2017, 05:40:15 AM   #42
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Default Re: Aftermarket front sway bar: worth it?

OP, I have TMS front and rear sway bars on my car and I'm using the OE links. I recommend that you change them the front and rear sway bars. If you only increase the stiffness of the front sway bar, you will get increased understeer, which isn't a desirable change.
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Old Fri, Apr-14-2017, 11:31:57 AM   #43
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Default Re: Aftermarket front sway bar: worth it?

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Originally Posted by bimmerdriver View Post
It's common knowledge that sway bars keep the car flatter which preserves suspension geometry, keeps the tires in better contact with the road and makes the car more responsive, because you don't have to wait as long for the weight transfer. Any decent handling vehicle has sway bars to reduce body roll. With all due respect, your comment about solid axles is trolling. Sway bars are not solid. They flex. You know that, or at least you should.
Soo by that logic are you suggesting a bigger bar is always better? A bigger sway bar always transfers more weight to the outside wheel which takes away overall available grip at that axle, camber curves aside... I don't think obioban was suggesting running without sway bars...
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Old Fri, Apr-14-2017, 12:21:32 PM   #44
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Default Re: Aftermarket front sway bar: worth it?

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Originally Posted by bimmerdriver View Post
It's common knowledge that sway bars keep the car flatter which preserves suspension geometry, keeps the tires in better contact with the road and makes the car more responsive, because you don't have to wait as long for the weight transfer. Any decent handling vehicle has sway bars to reduce body roll. With all due respect, your comment about solid axles is trolling. Sway bars are not solid. They flex. You know that, or at least you should.
A stiffer sway bar decreases grip.

If you want a car to understeer more, you stiffen the front sway-- this decreases the front grip, which means the front has less than it did before and will let go sooner than before relative to the rear. Or you soften the rear sway, which increases rear grip, with the same result.

If you want a car to oversteer more, you do the opposite.

Sways should be used to tweak oversteer/understeer bias. They do this be increasing and decreasing grip-- with stiffer decreasing grip. I don't see decreased grip as a desirable target, all else equal.

And, yes, I know that using sways doesn't convert a car into a solid axle-- I was trying to trigger people to think about what they were actually accomplishing with stiffer sways.

Quote:
Any decent handling vehicle has sway bars to reduce body roll.
Assuming you mean "stiff sway bars" (as I was never arguing cars should have none), this statement just isn't true. This is a modern convention, because people think that "LESS BODY ROLL = SPORTY!". But, if you drive a stock e30 M3 (which I think could be considered a benchmark of handling)-- massive body roll.



Or, a miata (another handling benchmark)? A full history of body roll:



That said, even your original statement (of any sway bar at all) is incorrect-- most modern McLarens have no sway bar :P
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Old Fri, Apr-14-2017, 12:32:22 PM   #45
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Default Re: Aftermarket front sway bar: worth it?

^I think you mean it transfers load to the outside tire. It would be beneficial to transfer load to the inside tire, as that's the one that's loosing grip and more likely to spin up, if its a drive wheel
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Old Fri, Apr-14-2017, 02:35:07 PM   #46
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Default Re: Aftermarket front sway bar: worth it?

I understand what you're all saying in theory, but the "conventional wisdom" on this forum is to add just a front sway bar. Yet, nobody does it with the aim of increased understeer.
To some degree, you just need to tinker and feel the changes for yourself. I am tempted to get a modest front bar (Hotchkis, +11% stiffer in front) just to feel the difference myself.
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Old Fri, Apr-14-2017, 03:34:18 PM   #47
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Default Re: Aftermarket front sway bar: worth it?

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Originally Posted by WyattH View Post
I understand what you're all saying in theory, but the "conventional wisdom" on this forum is to add just a front sway bar. Yet, nobody does it with the aim of increased understeer.
To some degree, you just need to tinker and feel the changes for yourself. I am tempted to get a modest front bar (Hotchkis, +11% stiffer in front) just to feel the difference myself.
The fundamental issue is that most people equate changing things to "better".
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Old Fri, Apr-14-2017, 04:04:34 PM   #48
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Default Re: Aftermarket front sway bar: worth it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WyattH View Post
I understand what you're all saying in theory, but the "conventional wisdom" on this forum is to add just a front sway bar. Yet, nobody does it with the aim of increased understeer.
To some degree, you just need to tinker and feel the changes for yourself. I am tempted to get a modest front bar (Hotchkis, +11% stiffer in front) just to feel the difference myself.
I didn't necessarily want understeer, but with a car that was going sideways coming out of every corner, I did want to move the car's behavior towards understeer to cut the excessive oversteer. Aftermarket front bar did just that.
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Old Fri, Apr-14-2017, 04:49:06 PM   #49
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Default Re: Aftermarket front sway bar: worth it?

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Originally Posted by TheSt|G View Post
The fundamental issue is that most people equate changing things to "better".
That's true and always a problem, but the "conventional wisdom" comes from people who have had front and rear and just front or no rear bar, etc ... so it seems honed in on a variety of "changes" the collective group has been through. If that makes any sense.
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Old Fri, Apr-14-2017, 05:07:07 PM   #50
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Default Re: Aftermarket front sway bar: worth it?

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I didn't necessarily want understeer, but with a car that was going sideways coming out of every corner, I did want to move the car's behavior towards understeer to cut the excessive oversteer. Aftermarket front bar did just that.
I love this statement which essentially contradicts the 'herd' notion that any understeer must be avoided at all costs.

The car will be easiest to drive with some understeer and thus fastest.
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Discussing Aftermarket front sway bar: worth it? in the E46 M3 (2001-2006) Forum - Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006. at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)