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E90 M3 (Sedan) | E92 M3 (Coupe) | E93 M3 (Convertible) (2008-2013) {Engine: S65 - Max Hp: 414 hp (420 hp Euro) at 8,300 rpm / 295 lb/ft at 3,900 rpm}


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Old Wed, Feb-22-2017, 03:50:31 PM   #21
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Default Re: Why are there so many M3 for sale around 50k miles?

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Originally Posted by #1P4PKing View Post
Well said. I'd turn them away.

E9X is like the Rolex of BMW's, the value will only increase. I plan to keep mine forever barring it getting totaled some how.
I agree, especially considering this generation was the only M3 to have a V8 put into it, that alone makes it very unique, especially with a 8.4K rev limit also the M3 E92 chassis is actually different from the 335i E92. In every aspect it changed, it stands taller, has a wider track, and is also longer than the 335i. I was so surpised. It makes sense seeing as how Matt Ferah on the smoking tire always states he sits higher up in the M3, which would correlate with the specs on the dimensions. I also plan on keeping mine forever, considering it has the sought after motor that fixes the downsides to the flatplane design.


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A big reason a lot of cars for sale are at that mileage is because of leases imo. 36 month or so lease could put the cars at 40-50k miles. If taken care of though, its almost the perfect mileage to buy at imo. Fresh enough to be essentially brand new in terms of exterior/interior (again if taken care of) but old enough to have depreciated a good amount. My dad got his ~40k mile space grey/fox red ZCP 6MT slicktop for like $40-something k I believe. Car still is like new and hasn't had any expenses outside of fluids, filters, and tires.
Yea I got mine for 35K out the door. 55K miles on the chassis and trans, had the stroker motor put in @ 20K. The only thing i've done is resolve basically every common issue that the S65 has...the rod bearings were done for me with the stroker build fortunately,but I rebuilt the throttle bodies, replaced valve-covers on both banks, spark plugs, oil change, diff fluid, trans fluid, coolant looked perfect as did the powersteering so I left those.Engine mounts were destroyed, replaced with some oems as it was pretty easy to do those. I'm also replacing the low pressure fuel sensor and a pre-cat O2 Sensors...car won't start without plenum on and I know it should considering the map sensor is in the one of the idle rails also getting codes for the low pressure fuel sensor. Any tips on that by chance, not the replacement but thoughts on why it wouldn't start without the plenum on? haha.
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Old Wed, Feb-22-2017, 09:05:09 PM   #22
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Default Re: Why are there so many M3 for sale around 50k miles?

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A big reason a lot of cars for sale are at that mileage is because of leases imo. 36 month or so lease could put the cars at 40-50k miles. If taken care of though, its almost the perfect mileage to buy at imo. Fresh enough to be essentially brand new in terms of exterior/interior (again if taken care of) but old enough to have depreciated a good amount. My dad got his ~40k mile space grey/fox red ZCP 6MT slicktop for like $40-something k I believe. Car still is like new and hasn't had any expenses outside of fluids, filters, and tires.
Read this and got hard as a rock.

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Old Thu, Feb-23-2017, 08:03:45 AM   #23
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Default Re: Why are there so many M3 for sale around 50k miles?

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Read this and got hard as a rock.



The bad thing about leases is that the leasers tend to not give a damn about the car cuz its not theirs and they're only going to have it for a few years.
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Old Thu, Feb-23-2017, 08:08:37 AM   #24
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Default Re: Why are there so many M3 for sale around 50k miles?

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Originally Posted by #1P4PKing View Post
Well said. I'd turn them away.

E9X is like the Rolex of BMW's, the value will only increase. I plan to keep mine forever barring it getting totaled some how.
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Originally Posted by nick380 View Post
I agree, especially considering this generation was the only M3 to have a V8 put into it, that alone makes it very unique, especially with a 8.4K rev limit also the M3 E92 chassis is actually different from the 335i E92. In every aspect it changed, it stands taller, has a wider track, and is also longer than the 335i. I was so surpised. It makes sense seeing as how Matt Ferah on the smoking tire always states he sits higher up in the M3, which would correlate with the specs on the dimensions. I also plan on keeping mine forever, considering it has the sought after motor that fixes the downsides to the flatplane design.
Oh come on, they're depreciating like every other M car out there. Only the e30, e28, etc. cars have really appreciated. In the next few years they will probably be at their lowest though and I think it's a good time to buy them. Of course, e46 is better :P

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Old Fri, Feb-24-2017, 04:16:25 AM   #25
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Default Re: Why are there so many M3 for sale around 50k miles?

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Oh come on, they're depreciating like every other M car out there. Only the e30, e28, etc. cars have really appreciated. In the next few years they will probably be at their lowest though and I think it's a good time to buy them. Of course, e46 is better :P

That's because it's a more recent build, it's expected to dip into depreciation, but it will rise, as did the e30. Once a few years go by, and the nostalgia sets in more, the value will rise, there's no way it won't. It's the last NA and V8 and an excellent and reliable car, easily one of the most balanced cars ever made, if it was notoriously unreliable maybe you'd have a point, but it's a historic car with great performance and no real flaws.

And I have to disagree with your last sentence lol.

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Old Fri, Feb-24-2017, 07:42:53 AM   #26
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Default Re: Why are there so many M3 for sale around 50k miles?

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That's because it's a more recent build, it's expected to dip into depreciation, but it will rise, as did the e30. Once a few years go by, and the nostalgia sets in more, the value will rise, there's no way it won't. It's the last NA and V8 and an excellent and reliable car, easily one of the most balanced cars ever made, if it was notoriously unreliable maybe you'd have a point, but it's a historic car with great performance and no real flaws.

And I have to disagree with your last sentence lol.

Ok, I agree, I'm not saying it won't appreciate but it needs more time is all. They're not only going to appreciate from this point on is what I'm saying.

It's true, the e9X M seems pretty solid compared to the e46 with VANOS and racp issues, but it can't quite match the driving experience Great engine though

(just my opinion)
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Old Fri, Feb-24-2017, 01:43:35 PM   #27
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Default Re: Why are there so many M3 for sale around 50k miles?

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Originally Posted by #1P4PKing View Post
That's because it's a more recent build, it's expected to dip into depreciation, but it will rise, as did the e30. Once a few years go by, and the nostalgia sets in more, the value will rise, there's no way it won't. It's the last NA and V8 and an excellent and reliable car, easily one of the most balanced cars ever made, if it was notoriously unreliable maybe you'd have a point, but it's a historic car with great performance and no real flaws.

And I have to disagree with your last sentence lol.

There is one HUGE flaw:
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=786615

With no proven fixes for less than $25,000 (stroker).

And some niggling but highly expensive flaws-- throttle actuators, iDrive, DCT.

I agree they'll eventually go up, as they're the last "real" (traditional) M car. But, they have another 5-8 years of depreciation ahead of them first. And then it'll be a separation-- nice, close to stock examples will start going up in value, crappy examples will continue to get cheaper and cheaper.

My guess, though I'm clearly biased due to my love for the e46, is that they won't end up being worth as much as the e46M. The e46M is a more special driving experience, which matters more and more as the cars get older (and all of them are slow by current standards). Comfort becomes a detractor as they transition from DDs to garage queens/weekend experience cars, "faster" matters less as they're all incleasingly slow compared to ever faster modern cars, iDrive will show its age more and more (and dominates the interior on cars that have it), and the e46 M3 is pretty universally agreed as the best looking M3 generation. Plus, the S54 is in many ways the "most" M engine-- highest specific HP output of any NA M engine, highest specific torque output of any NA M engine, highest piston speeds of any M engine, traditional BMW engine configuration.

(not that I'm saying mine will ever be worth anything-- it's far from stock and I drive it a lot of miles, as well as tracking it)
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Old Fri, Feb-24-2017, 03:27:17 PM   #28
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Default Re: Why are there so many M3 for sale around 50k miles?

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Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
There is one HUGE flaw:
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=786615

With no proven fixes for less than $25,000 (stroker).

And some niggling but highly expensive flaws-- throttle actuators, iDrive, DCT.

I agree they'll eventually go up, as they're the last "real" (traditional) M car. But, they have another 5-8 years of depreciation ahead of them first. And then it'll be a separation-- nice, close to stock examples will start going up in value, crappy examples will continue to get cheaper and cheaper.

My guess, though I'm clearly biased due to my love for the e46, is that they won't end up being worth as much as the e46M. The e46M is a more special driving experience, which matters more and more as the cars get older (and all of them are slow by current standards). Comfort becomes a detractor as they transition from DDs to garage queens/weekend experience cars, "faster" matters less as they're all incleasingly slow compared to ever faster modern cars, iDrive will show its age more and more (and dominates the interior on cars that have it), and the e46 M3 is pretty universally agreed as the best looking M3 generation. Plus, the S54 is in many ways the "most" M engine-- highest specific HP output of any NA M engine, highest specific torque output of any NA M engine, highest piston speeds of any M engine, traditional BMW engine configuration.

(not that I'm saying mine will ever be worth anything-- it's far from stock and I drive it a lot of miles, as well as tracking it)
Rod bearings issues were not specific to S65, in fact S54 and S85 had similar issue, however less publicized. In fact if I remember correctly BMW actually did a recall on 2011-2003.2 M3's. The fix prior to failure is more like 2K deal of it is a real fix remains to be seen. Overall though e9x M3 is a less expensive "problematic" car than e46, considering the tearing subframes, vanos failure, valve trains adjustment requirements among others...each of these cars have their own perks and all are fairly good compromises for people appreciating the tradition NA M cars. Whether they appreciate or not is not an issue for anyone who plans to drive their car, if you buy a clean one and store it, you will likely see some degree of appreciation but money is better invested elsewhere
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Old Fri, Feb-24-2017, 03:48:31 PM   #29
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Default Re: Why are there so many M3 for sale around 50k miles?

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Rod bearings issues were not specific to S65, in fact S54 and S85 had similar issue, however less publicized. In fact if I remember correctly BMW actually did a recall on 2011-2003.2 M3's. The fix prior to failure is more like 2K deal of it is a real fix remains to be seen. Overall though e9x M3 is a less expensive "problematic" car than e46, considering the tearing subframes, vanos failure, valve trains adjustment requirements among others...each of these cars have their own perks and all are fairly good compromises for people appreciating the tradition NA M cars. Whether they appreciate or not is not an issue for anyone who plans to drive their car, if you buy a clean one and store it, you will likely see some degree of appreciation but money is better invested elsewhere
The rod bearing situation on the s54 is VERY different than the rod/main bearing situation on the s65/s85.

2001-2003 s54s had improperly manufactured rod bearings from the factory (not built to BMW's spec). BMW recalled them, and replaced them with bearings built to their spec. At this point, that issue is well in the past-- I can't imagine there's an s54 left that hasn't been either recalled or blown up for not having the recall service done at this point.

Beyond that, the S54 has rod bearing wear in line with what you'd expect from a high revving engine. Replacement intervals at ~80-100,000 mile intervals for cars that are tracked, forever for cars that don't get their redline used frequently, somewhere in between for most (which can be determined via oil analysis).

The s65/s85 rod/main bearings fail seemingly based on lottery-- no correlation with driving style, environment, oil change intervals, anything. And seeing as there's MANY reported failure with <20,000 miles on them, I don't see replacing them as particularly solving the problem. Certainly replacing them at wear intervals makes sense-- so, say 100,000 for cars that are tracked, but it doesn't address the rod bearing lottery problem-- replacing them only addresses traditional wear. And, very few people are going to replace the main bearings (since it's an engine out service), which are having similar issues (though seemingly not as much as they do on the s85).

The e46 certainly has its own issues, but they're easy and cheap to address permanently if you do it before failure. The biggest issue with the e46, at this point, is how many people take the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality and wait for the subframe to tear out or vanos to fail to think about it/fix it... and which point they have a VERY expensive fix on their hands.
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Old Fri, Feb-24-2017, 09:17:25 PM   #30
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Default Re: Why are there so many M3 for sale around 50k miles?

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Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
The rod bearing situation on the s54 is VERY different than the rod/main bearing situation on the s65/s85.

2001-2003 s54s had improperly manufactured rod bearings from the factory (not built to BMW's spec). BMW recalled them, and replaced them with bearings built to their spec. At this point, that issue is well in the past-- I can't imagine there's an s54 left that hasn't been either recalled or blown up for not having the recall service done at this point.

Beyond that, the S54 has rod bearing wear in line with what you'd expect from a high revving engine. Replacement intervals at ~80-100,000 mile intervals for cars that are tracked, forever for cars that don't get their redline used frequently, somewhere in between for most (which can be determined via oil analysis).

The s65/s85 rod/main bearings fail seemingly based on lottery-- no correlation with driving style, environment, oil change intervals, anything. And seeing as there's MANY reported failure with <20,000 miles on them, I don't see replacing them as particularly solving the problem. Certainly replacing them at wear intervals makes sense-- so, say 100,000 for cars that are tracked, but it doesn't address the rod bearing lottery problem-- replacing them only addresses traditional wear. And, very few people are going to replace the main bearings (since it's an engine out service), which are having similar issues (though seemingly not as much as they do on the s85).

The e46 certainly has its own issues, but they're easy and cheap to address permanently if you do it before failure. The biggest issue with the e46, at this point, is how many people take the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality and wait for the subframe to tear out or vanos to fail to think about it/fix it... and which point they have a VERY expensive fix on their hands.
I understand that but as a formal owner, back 10 years ago, seeing engines fail, rod bearings get recalled and replaced, subframes being torn and vanoses grenade and dealers ask for $1000 to do valve adjustments were not reassuring for owners. Most of these issues have become more clear and fixes have been found to deal with many, still owning e46 M3 for someone who is not as mechanically inclined is not a cheap endeavor. My e46 was rock solid in 5 years and 48k miles of ownership, so have been two e92 M3's so far, they are still newer and issues less sorted out. The bearing issue is certainly a big failure if and when it occurs but still very small percentage. I have gotten an additional coverage for mechanical failure as part of my insurance for peace of mind. Cars are otherwise pretty reliable, the throttle actuators seem to be the other main issue. There are a lot of cars with high mileage and no issues, I wish the bearing failure would become more understood, it is a shame that a good engine is plagued by this.
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Discussing Why are there so many M3 for sale around 50k miles? in the E90 M3 (Sedan) | E92 M3 (Coupe) | E93 M3 (Convertible) (2008-2013) Forum - {Engine: S65 - Max Hp: 414 hp (420 hp Euro) at 8,300 rpm / 295 lb/ft at 3,900 rpm} at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)