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E46 M3 (2001-2006) Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006.


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Old Tue, Jan-24-2017, 02:45:16 PM   #411
Thenakedflyer
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Default Re: DIY: Vanos hub + bolts

Hello guys.. Sorry to resurrect an old thread but it's a good one :-).. I'm doing a whole engine rebuild and at stage of doing the timing check on the vanos. I followed the beisan systems procedure both shafts and crank locked and after tightening everything, then, doing a full rotation and then checking the timing again, the inlet camshaft was in a retarded position by about ten degrees or so so had to slacken the hub bolts again and turn the shaft back to the correct position and retighten the hub bolts.. This was after the whole vanos unit had been fully mounted. Am I right in saying that after a few full cycles or rotations of the assembly and back to tdc cylinder one the splined shafts should be fully towards the front of the car and against the vanos unit and oil pump disc ie against the piston stops and the camshafts still be in time with the bridge and locking pins dropping in?
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Old Tue, Jan-24-2017, 02:50:54 PM   #412
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Default Re: DIY: Vanos hub + bolts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thenakedflyer View Post
Hello guys.. Sorry to resurrect an old thread but it's a good one :-).. I'm doing a whole engine rebuild and at stage of doing the timing check on the vanos. I followed the beisan systems procedure both shafts and crank locked and after tightening everything, then, doing a full rotation and then checking the timing again, the inlet camshaft was in a retarded position by about ten degrees or so so had to slacken the hub bolts again and turn the shaft back to the correct position and retighten the hub bolts.. This was after the whole vanos unit had been fully mounted. Am I right in saying that after a few full cycles or rotations of the assembly and back to tdc cylinder one the splined shafts should be fully towards the front of the car and against the vanos unit and oil pump disc ie against the piston stops and the camshafts still be in time with the bridge and locking pins dropping in?
No worries, I'm still subscribed to the thread

Regardless of what method you use to time the engine, once you've put it back together and it's timed, it is timed. If you move it, at times one cam, or the other, or both, retard/advance themselves so that when you're done rotating the engine a couple times it looks like a disaster is waiting to happen.

Don't worry, that is completely normal. If after rotating the engines it looks ugly and you want to 'time' it again, be aware you will be timing again from scratch. Make sure the bottom is actually at TDC, not just OIT. Then begin your timing process.

In short: once the engine is timed you do not need to worry about rotating it. The only moment the engine can 'lose' timing is when the bolts are loose.

Cheers
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Old Tue, Jan-24-2017, 02:51:45 PM   #413
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Default Re: DIY: Vanos hub + bolts

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Thanks SYT for the diy - I found this much easier to follow then the beisan one. Almost too easy...
LOL, never say that! Glad it was helpful.
I feel it is easier to understand this method, but both work and people should use what they're more comfortable with!
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Old Tue, Jan-24-2017, 03:08:18 PM   #414
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Default Re: DIY: Vanos hub + bolts

Thankyou for your prompt reply!
Yes I'm pretty sure I'm 95% right where it is. I'm not using my original marks as the splined shaft could be put in a better tooth than it came out off.. Anyway what I think I did perhaps wrong was have the inlet splined shaft a bit towards the engine to help me engage it first then the exhaust which was fully back.. As I then turned the engine the resistance by the valve springs then caused the hubs to push the splined shaft back to against the bump stops inside the piston caps.. Which of course made it slightly out of time when back to tdc.. So I unclamped the hubs and lined up the camshaft again and retightened the hub bolts.. So in theory both the splined shafts have fully retracted towards the front of the car against the piston caps and the camshafts are pinned and locked in position bottom tdc.. Would this be the correct position? or is the default position with the splined shaft inserted into the hubs some distance? This is crucial.. At the moment both my shafts are out and teeth just visible. Id imagine if there was hydraulic failure then the resistance of the valve springs would push the splined shafts fully forward against the piston caps.. The engine has to safely run at this but if the initial timing ie hub bolt tightening to sprockets is in the wrong place this could mean poor running at one end of the Rev range?
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Old Tue, Jan-24-2017, 03:36:05 PM   #415
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Default Re: DIY: Vanos hub + bolts

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Originally Posted by Thenakedflyer View Post
Thankyou for your prompt reply!
Yes I'm pretty sure I'm 95% right where it is. I'm not using my original marks as the splined shaft could be put in a better tooth than it came out off.. Anyway what I think I did perhaps wrong was have the inlet splined shaft a bit towards the engine to help me engage it first then the exhaust which was fully back.. As I then turned the engine the resistance by the valve springs then caused the hubs to push the splined shaft back to against the bump stops inside the piston caps.. Which of course made it slightly out of time when back to tdc.. So I unclamped the hubs and lined up the camshaft again and retightened the hub bolts.. So in theory both the splined shafts have fully retracted towards the front of the car against the piston caps and the camshafts are pinned and locked in position bottom tdc.. Would this be the correct position? or is the default position with the splined shaft inserted into the hubs some distance? This is crucial.. At the moment both my shafts are out and teeth just visible. Id imagine if there was hydraulic failure then the resistance of the valve springs would push the splined shafts fully forward against the piston caps.. The engine has to safely run at this but if the initial timing ie hub bolt tightening to sprockets is in the wrong place this could mean poor running at one end of the Rev range?
I can't specifically comment on Beisan's procedure and whether it's right the way you have it now, but feel free to call or email Raj. He is very responsive.

If the engine is timed it doesn't matter how it looks after turning it a few times. The first thing the vanos control will do is move the timing to whatever suits it.
Anywhere within the range of movement of a timed vanos is safe.
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Old Tue, Jan-24-2017, 04:12:58 PM   #416
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Default Re: DIY: Vanos hub + bolts

Ok.. Cheers..
Yes I think I may email him too.
Somebody did post on here I think about the cup springs inside the hubs and their job is to help take up slack in the system and hence require to be preloaded and the spacers used at the outside vanos mount bolts are equivalent to the amount of squeeze that tensions these springs. If this isn't done would it not result in the slack maninfesting itself when started and running leading to the camshaft drifting at full retard. Of course at other ends of the camshaft timing spread this wouldn't be evident because like you say the oil pressure holds the timing where it needs to be at the given rpm. And actually the 'sweet tooth' is a complete myth and actual timing has nothing to do with this. The slots in the sprocket wheels do nothing but actually facilitate the installation of the vanos (by whatever method) its just the way bmw have designed it to be done. The camshaft spread is 65 degrees and 135 degrees (can't remember which is relating to which camshaft) but both are way way more than the slots.. I think a lot of people confuse the slots and hub movement when fitting with the actual degree movement caused by travel of the splined shafts in and out.. .. Just trying to understand it abit more detail before I settle my mind I've done it right.. :-/
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Old Tue, Apr-18-2017, 06:52:57 AM   #417
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Default Re: DIY: Vanos hub + bolts

Hi guys,
I went through and did my exhaust side bolts, and when pulling the inner bolts I replaced a couple of them before I pulled the rest. Somehow that idea slipped my mind on the intake side, and with just a little movement the entire spocket slipped off and there goes my chain tension. Now, I can't seem to get proper tension back in it so I'm assuming I need to pull the tensioner or something to get some slack in the chain, remount the sprocket and complete the job.

Does that sound right? I looked around for a DIY on replacing the lower chain guide or the tensioner, but didn't find anything documented/pictures to make it clear what to do.

Thanks for the help!
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Old Tue, Apr-18-2017, 04:13:10 PM   #418
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Default Re: DIY: Vanos hub + bolts

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Originally Posted by JamesSJ1 View Post
Hi guys,
I went through and did my exhaust side bolts, and when pulling the inner bolts I replaced a couple of them before I pulled the rest. Somehow that idea slipped my mind on the intake side, and with just a little movement the entire spocket slipped off and there goes my chain tension. Now, I can't seem to get proper tension back in it so I'm assuming I need to pull the tensioner or something to get some slack in the chain, remount the sprocket and complete the job.

Does that sound right? I looked around for a DIY on replacing the lower chain guide or the tensioner, but didn't find anything documented/pictures to make it clear what to do.

Thanks for the help!
The Beisan procedures explain how to do the tensioner, but getting the Bentley manual is something I'd highly recommend just to have it in your garage.

The tensioner is hydraulic, so you just need to remove it, mount the chain, etc. and re-install with a new crush washer after you're done working with the sprockets and such
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Old Tue, Apr-18-2017, 04:46:51 PM   #419
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Default Re: DIY: Vanos hub + bolts

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Originally Posted by Drewster View Post
The Beisan procedures explain how to do the tensioner, but getting the Bentley manual is something I'd highly recommend just to have it in your garage.

The tensioner is hydraulic, so you just need to remove it, mount the chain, etc. and re-install with a new crush washer after you're done working with the sprockets and such
Thanks for the reminder! I forgot that the Beisan anti-rattle work has these instructions since I wasn't in there doing the anti-rattle work, just everything else (seals, pump, and bolts). Now I just have to get over to BMW today for a couple crush washers.
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Old Fri, Apr-21-2017, 12:48:32 PM   #420
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Default Re: DIY: Vanos hub + bolts

Sorry if this has been answered already, I've looked through the first 12+ pages for the answer to my question.

I'm getting ready to do this tonight and tomorrow. Everything is clear except the process of inserting the spline back into the hub/cam. I thought I read somewhere (I can't find it anymore) to mark which tooth lines up with something else so that you reinsert the spline in its "ideal" position. Is this needed? It's not in this DIY and I can't seem to find it again.

Second question, when inserting the spline back into the hub, you're supposed to insert until you just see a little bit of the teeth protruding from the hub then tighten the hub. This has me confused, why is this not a measured/critical distance? In my mind, if the hub is tightened with the spline slightly above or below the ideal point, isn't the relationship between the cam and hub slightly off? I guess maybe I'll understand it more once I actually do it but I just don't understand how it's an approximated thing to set the spline depth before tightening the hub.
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Discussing DIY: Vanos hub + bolts in the E46 M3 (2001-2006) Forum - Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006. at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)