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E90 M3 (Sedan) | E92 M3 (Coupe) | E93 M3 (Convertible) (2008-2013) {Engine: S65 - Max Hp: 414 hp (420 hp Euro) at 8,300 rpm / 295 lb/ft at 3,900 rpm}


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Old Wed, Feb-08-2017, 05:05:55 AM   #41
Boozshie
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Default Re: Prospect Owner - Reliability and Maintenance Question

Wonderful retort, bravo. Excellent argument and solid logic. /sarcasm

When you're out of ideas, just call them stupid, they'll surely care :rolleyes:
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Old Wed, Feb-08-2017, 11:30:28 AM   #42
Obioban
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Default Re: Prospect Owner - Reliability and Maintenance Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boozshie View Post
Literally retarded. The enjoyable part of driving is the driving, not ****ing around with a pedal and stick. But hey, everything's black and white, you love manual or you want to be chauffered around a track, right? I take it you've torn all the comfort and ease-of-use refinements out of your car, right? No power steering, no power brakes, throttle is by a cable, ABS and traction control don't exist, etc. If not, you're being an obtuse moron.
I think you're missing my point (which I tried to make humorously, but seems to have gone missed):

"faster" only matters if your racing (which tracking isn't). And even when you're racing, it still doesn't matter, as you'll be in different classes (e.g. PCA puts PDK cars in a different class than 6mt cars). Maybe when a car is new, you can have a brief moment of pride that it's "fast" relative to its competition (though, again, only actually matters if your racing). But at this point, the current mustang, camaro, corvette, 911, cayman, M3, C63, ATS V, CTS V, insert modern performance car here, are all faster than the e9XM-- be it 6mt or DCT.

So at that point, it comes down to what you enjoy more. Personally, I don't feel properly in control of a car without a clutch pedal-- I can't modulate the clutch on launch to match traction, I can't clutch kick to initiate a drift at will, I can't feel what gear I'm in with my hand, to know my speed, rather than having to look at the speedo, etc etc. Moreover, I find the entire experience much less enjoyable. So... why would I want a DCT? The arguments for it all come back to either "faster" or "I can't stick". I see no benefit to faster, and I can stick.

(hydraulic) power steering and power brakes are levers-- they don't lessen control or feel, just reduce the required force to operate.

ABS and DSC (in M track mode on the street) don't kick in unless you've screwed up, so they don't detract from the driving experience. On track, my DSC is off. I don't like (won't buy) cars where the stability controls make you faster, either (e.g. GTR).

A throttle cable is better for sure. One of the many reasons I think the e39 528i is a better car than the e39 M5 (I have both).

Really, though, it comes back to this for me: why do you care about "faster"? I'm not a race car driver, just someone who enjoys driving spiritedly and tracking my cars. To that end, the only benefit of "faster" is if it makes the car more enjoyable. DCT makes the car heavier, more expensive to maintain/repair, and less enjoyable for me, so why would I want it?

Really, if I cared about "faster", I'm very much in the wrong car. Z06 is where the smart "faster" crowd should live.
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Current Cars: 2005 IR/IR M3, 2001 LMB/blk M5, Wife's 6mt NA RWD e91, 04 M3 wagon
Past cars: 04 M3, 96 M3, S50B32 e36 M3 CM race car

FS: 6mt, RWD, iDrive free, properly maintained e91 (wagon)

Last edited by Obioban; Wed, Feb-08-2017 at 01:23:15 PM.
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Old Wed, Feb-08-2017, 12:33:00 PM   #43
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Default Re: Prospect Owner - Reliability and Maintenance Question

Let's resurrect a listserve for the manual transmission people.
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Old Fri, Feb-10-2017, 03:28:47 PM   #44
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Default Re: Prospect Owner - Reliability and Maintenance Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
I think you're missing my point (which I tried to make humorously, but seems to have gone missed):

"faster" only matters if your racing (which tracking isn't). And even when you're racing, it still doesn't matter, as you'll be in different classes (e.g. PCA puts PDK cars in a different class than 6mt cars). Maybe when a car is new, you can have a brief moment of pride that it's "fast" relative to its competition (though, again, only actually matters if your racing). But at this point, the current mustang, camaro, corvette, 911, cayman, M3, C63, ATS V, CTS V, insert modern performance car here, are all faster than the e9XM-- be it 6mt or DCT.

So at that point, it comes down to what you enjoy more. Personally, I don't feel properly in control of a car without a clutch pedal-- I can't modulate the clutch on launch to match traction, I can't clutch kick to initiate a drift at will, I can't feel what gear I'm in with my hand, to know my speed, rather than having to look at the speedo, etc etc. Moreover, I find the entire experience much less enjoyable. So... why would I want a DCT? The arguments for it all come back to either "faster" or "I can't stick". I see no benefit to faster, and I can stick.

(hydraulic) power steering and power brakes are levers-- they don't lessen control or feel, just reduce the required force to operate.

ABS and DSC (in M track mode on the street) don't kick in unless you've screwed up, so they don't detract from the driving experience. On track, my DSC is off. I don't like (won't buy) cars where the stability controls make you faster, either (e.g. GTR).

A throttle cable is better for sure. One of the many reasons I think the e39 528i is a better car than the e39 M5 (I have both).

Really, though, it comes back to this for me: why do you care about "faster"? I'm not a race car driver, just someone who enjoys driving spiritedly and tracking my cars. To that end, the only benefit of "faster" is if it makes the car more enjoyable. DCT makes the car heavier, more expensive to maintain/repair, and less enjoyable for me, so why would I want it?

Really, if I cared about "faster", I'm very much in the wrong car. Z06 is where the smart "faster" crowd should live.
It doesn't matter what you want, really - the point of this thread was about the reliability of DCT, which was thrown way out of kilter by manual trolls once again suggesting that the only answer for anyone else is manual.

The point of the 'faster' argument is that the manual has no objective benefits anymore aside from reliability due to simplicity. That's it. So you're arguing personal preference to someone that prefers the opposite. Do you see why that's arrogant? Every time anyone mentions DCT there's some manual loving poster going "hurr durr buy manual lool", as if people aren't equally free to prefer DCT over manual. Especially with the "you're not a true enthusiast", "you just can't drive stick", "you're lazy and want the car to drive itself" type accusations.

I prefer DCT because it's much slicker, doesn't get on my nerves in traffic, and is 100% consistent. The fact it's faster around a track means the weight argument is moot - the difference can't be very significant if it doesn't slow it down - and it's not like it makes the car drive like a tank. Personal biases will have a greater effect in creating such illusions if you already believe that to be true, but you're not going to feel the additional 45lbs that a DCT adds over a manual transmission. If that much weight matters to you, an M3 isn't the car for you regardless - you'd need to strip out a shitton of weight to get the car to a reasonable weight rather than the porky 3,500lbs any of them are.

Every time anyone else expresses anything besides love for manual they get told manual is better, but if anyone argues back it's always "it's personal preference, I find it more fun". Great, but why should I give a shit?

Last edited by Boozshie; Fri, Feb-10-2017 at 03:37:41 PM.
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Old Fri, Feb-10-2017, 03:54:34 PM   #45
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Default Re: Prospect Owner - Reliability and Maintenance Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boozshie View Post
It doesn't matter what you want, really - the point of this thread was about the reliability of DCT, which was thrown way out of kilter by manual trolls once again suggesting that the only answer for anyone else is manual.

The point of the 'faster' argument is that the manual has no objective benefits anymore aside from reliability due to simplicity. That's it. So you're arguing personal preference to someone that prefers the opposite. Do you see why that's arrogant? Every time anyone mentions DCT there's some manual loving poster going "hurr durr buy manual lool", as if people aren't equally free to prefer DCT over manual. Especially with the "you're not a true enthusiast", "you just can't drive stick", "you're lazy and want the car to drive itself" type accusations.

Every time anyone else expresses anything besides love for manual they get told manual is better, but if anyone argues back it's always "it's personal preference, I find it more fun". Great, but why should I give a shit?
Objective 6mt benefits: reliability and weight.
Objective DCT benefits: faster and you don't have to be able to drive stick

You can't claim people are arragoant for extolling the virtues of 6mt, yet do the same thing with DCT. And the first, non objective, "value" placed in this thread on the transmission was by you:

Quote:
DCT is better than the manual unless you're a hardcore manual fan and then it probably wouldn't be a question
.

and then

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boozshie View Post
Yeah, I know how to drive stick and still prefer DCT. It's flat-out better for this car.

[snip]

I'm not the type that gives a shit about tradition, etc. and don't find the process of pressing a pedal and moving a lever any more engaging than flipping paddles or just plain 'ole driving the car and letting the machine handle the mechanics, so long as the results are better.
Pot, meet kettle.

All that aside, he was asking about which people would pick (personal values, he didn't ask which was faster) and which was more reliable (6mt is). For review, here was his question:

Quote:
Which transmission would you guys pick? DCT or manual? I don't mind driving manual in rush hour traffic as I have done it for over 10 years in the past. So I won't factor in rush hour traffic even though a DCT will be better in that sense. Which one is more reliable? I've read that the DCT tends to have more issues?
Seems to me question asks both what people prefer (which was expressed by both sides) and what's more reliable (pretty sure everyone agrees 6mt is more reliable). I don't see any question in there asking which is faster.
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FS: 6mt, RWD, iDrive free, properly maintained e91 (wagon)
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Old Fri, Feb-10-2017, 07:05:12 PM   #46
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Default Re: Prospect Owner - Reliability and Maintenance Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
Objective 6mt benefits: reliability and weight.
Objective DCT benefits: faster and you don't have to be able to drive stick
Woohoo, 45lbs... I mentioned reliability, but it's both moot on a complex German auto that's hardly going to be cheap to maintain regardless and obvious - simpler = more reliable, period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
You can't claim people are arragoant for extolling the virtues of 6mt, yet do the same thing with DCT. And the first, non objective, "value" placed in this thread on the transmission was by you:
Back in ****in' 2015 when the thread was started, not in the recent discussion, which was relating to rpearl's question, not the OPs stretching back 14 months. Either way, the statement I made was an objective one - in terms of performing the function of shifting gears rapidly, DCT is better than manual, full stop. The only benefits to manual are personal preference among dinos and reliability. DCT is simply not unreliable enough for it to be a serious factor, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post

Pot, meet kettle.

All that aside, he was asking about which people would pick (personal values, he didn't ask which was faster) and which was more reliable (6mt is). For review, here was his question:
Again, that discussion was ancient, rpearl's question was the more recent discussion, since he necro'd the thread. He was the one asking the question needing an answer, and hogger was the one shoving the manual nonsense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
Seems to me question asks both what people prefer (which was expressed by both sides) and what's more reliable (pretty sure everyone agrees 6mt is more reliable). I don't see any question in there asking which is faster.
The question rpearl asked was 'how reliable is DCT?', and was a separate discussion to the rest of the thread from 2015. Perhaps better as its own thread, but when there's such a huge gap in posts I see replies that bring it back from the dead as starting a new, albeit related discussion. It's not like MaximusB is still waiting for an answer, he's not even been on the board for the last 8 months.

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Old Fri, Feb-10-2017, 07:13:35 PM   #47
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Default Re: Prospect Owner - Reliability and Maintenance Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boozshie View Post
Woohoo, 45lbs... I mentioned reliability, but it's both moot on a complex German auto that's hardly going to be cheap to maintain regardless and obvious - simpler = more reliable, period.



Back in ****in' 2015 when the thread was started, not in the recent discussion, which was relating to rpearl's question, not the OPs stretching back 18 months. Either way, the statement I made was an objective one - in terms of performing the function of shifting gears rapidly, DCT is better than manual, full stop. The only benefits to manual are personal preference among dinos and reliability. DCT is simply not unreliable enough for it to be a serious factor, though.



Again, that discussion was ancient, rpearl's question was the more recent discussion, since he necro'd the thread. He was the one asking the question needing an answer, and hogger was the one shoving the manual nonsense.



The question rpearl asked was 'how reliable is DCT?', and was a separate discussion to the rest of the thread from 2015.
If you find people having different opinions than you upsetting, I would suggest the internet is not the place for you.

I don't know in what car world 45 lbs isn't not a hugely significant weight change on a car.

In 2017, you were also the first to go on the attack:

Quote:
Great non-answer. Maybe when you're done wanking off to outdated transmissions you'll have something to add.
Perhaps you find people arguing with you about transmissions frequently because you're argumentative. When you made that post, did you think that was an inoffensive post that would not elicit a response?
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Old Fri, Feb-10-2017, 07:44:00 PM   #48
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Default Re: Prospect Owner - Reliability and Maintenance Question

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If you find people having different opinions than you upsetting, I would suggest the internet is not the place for you.

I don't know in what car world 45 lbs isn't not a hugely significant weight change on a car.
If we were talking a Miata, yeah, but on a 3,500lb car? LOL A 1.3% difference in weight isn't significant, especially when talking about a luxury car. Now who's talking about racecar stuff? Removing all the sound deadening and leather seats would get rid of far more than 45lbs, but I don't see people doing that. I mean, most of us could bear with losing almost that much, if obesity stats of the US are of any use... And a passenger will add far more... Unless its a small kid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
In 2017, you were also the first to go on the attack:



Perhaps you find people arguing with you about transmissions frequently because you're argumentative. When you made that post, did you think that was an inoffensive post that would not elicit a response?
I was responding to hogger's non-answer plugging manual. And yeah, it was meant as an attack. I dislike you manual types as much as you dislike non-manual-lovers. Your fetishization of a transmission type takes away from the hobby. I'm not the one claiming people that prefer manual aren't enthusiasts, are lazy, lack skill, etc. That's squarely on you lot, and is why I dislike you. Besides, I'm mostly only on here for shitposting now anyway. I already know the prevailing opinions on most boards regarding el manuel vs. DCT/PDK/etc. Those will mostly change as dinos go extinct, rather than convincing anyone.

Last edited by Boozshie; Fri, Feb-10-2017 at 08:04:43 PM.
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Old Fri, Feb-10-2017, 08:46:26 PM   #49
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Default Re: Prospect Owner - Reliability and Maintenance Question

I have no dislike for people with automatics. I do dislike the viewpoint that everyone should have one.

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I'm mostly only on here for shitposting now anyway.
Noted. Banned. Not what the forum is for.
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Discussing Prospect Owner - Reliability and Maintenance Question in the E90 M3 (Sedan) | E92 M3 (Coupe) | E93 M3 (Convertible) (2008-2013) Forum - {Engine: S65 - Max Hp: 414 hp (420 hp Euro) at 8,300 rpm / 295 lb/ft at 3,900 rpm} at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)