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M3 Track: Racing and DE Best mod for speed is learning to get the most out of what you currently have. Tracks and DE's is the place to start!


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Old Thu, Aug-23-2018, 11:42:35 PM   #71
SQ13
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Default Re: BBK Worth it?

Not following the “less is better” thing. I should have paid attention in physics 1.
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Old Fri, Aug-24-2018, 12:07:15 AM   #72
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Default Re: BBK Worth it?

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Originally Posted by SQ13 View Post
Not following the “less is better” thing. I should have paid attention in physics 1.


Basically saying that most people including me tend to overbrake. Also think about weight - you can be in the same turn in the same position at the same time exact speed but depending on where you started braking and where you released, the weight distribution could be very different and you could have difficulty with either turn in or with power on exit.

Think about turn 7 at TWS you wouldn’t charge in full speed into the apex and hit the brakes to slow to 95 make the turn and power out. You lightly touch the brake or just a lift to get the weight to the front probably 3 car lengths before apex, turn in and roll back into throttle. No need to trail brake in there because you can take the corner pretty much flat at apex as long as weight is neutral. Turn 10 is much different. There you’re going to charge in there, brake hard to get car rotated and then maintenance throttle. Again using the brakes to properly transfer weight.




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Old Fri, Aug-24-2018, 05:52:56 AM   #73
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Default Re: BBK Worth it?

This talk about BBK is making me want to have a BBK kit myself maybe sometime later on.

Since we are on the subject:

Running brake ducts on a BBK setup? <---is this super crucial or ??

I assume with a BBK setup, the rotors that come with a BBK kit are improved in heat dispersion. And usually with race pads, aren't they're best when they reach a certain operating temp range? So perhaps with brake ducting, you might "overcool" the brakes and never reach that optimal temp range or ??

Let me know your thoughts, thanks in advance
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Old Fri, Aug-24-2018, 05:56:29 AM   #74
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Default Re: BBK Worth it?

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Originally Posted by usedunderwear View Post
This talk about BBK is making me want to have a BBK kit myself maybe sometime later on.

Since we are on the subject:

Running brake ducts on a BBK setup? <---is this super crucial or ??

I assume with a BBK setup, the rotors that come with a BBK kit are improved in heat dispersion. And usually with race pads, aren't they're best when they reach a certain operating temp range? So perhaps with brake ducting, you might "overcool" the brakes and never reach that optimal temp range or ??

Let me know your thoughts, thanks in advance
Really depends on your local tracks. Personally I don't feel I need to run the ducts except at Laguna--its the only super hard on brakes track here.

I installed them recently but haven't needed them, and decided to remove the ducting for better turning radius in the shop. They've been more of a hassle than anything since you really limit wheel lock with them.
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Old Fri, Aug-24-2018, 02:55:49 PM   #75
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Default Re: BBK Worth it?

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They just repaved the whole track! It was in really rough condition when I got into HPDEs a few years back so I never had a chance to drive it. But they repaved it, put some curbing down (but no exit curbs?) and opened it back up.

All the old timers say the track is much faster now. Like 4-5 seconds faster. One of the guys with a GT3 Cup car thinks he can do a sub 60 second lap with an open track.

I’ve got some footage of the track I can share, if you’re interested.
Sure, I'd like to see how it looks now. Yeah, a few years back when I was still living in Ohio, I saw some footage of the track surface (patches more than anything else) so I decided to not to go there. Glad to hear that it's been revitalized.

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And how did you post a cuss word? Jealous.
Hmm, I'm not sure! I figured it would get censored. Maybe a perk for being here for 15 years
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Old Fri, Aug-24-2018, 03:13:47 PM   #76
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Default Re: BBK Worth it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by usedunderwear View Post
This talk about BBK is making me want to have a BBK kit myself maybe sometime later on.

Since we are on the subject:

Running brake ducts on a BBK setup? <---is this super crucial or ??

I assume with a BBK setup, the rotors that come with a BBK kit are improved in heat dispersion. And usually with race pads, aren't they're best when they reach a certain operating temp range? So perhaps with brake ducting, you might "overcool" the brakes and never reach that optimal temp range or ??

Let me know your thoughts, thanks in advance
I had a discussion just the other day with a very knowledgeable guy at Essex Parts about brake ducts......he's not a very big fan of brake ducting, partcularly with their AP kits. With the 72 vane rotors, they're pretty efficient to begin with.

He told me they've done testing and actually seen HIGHER temps with ducts. Apparently the mass produced kits on the market don't deliver enough volume of air, and by blocking the natural intake with the backing plate, they actually cool less. He really only agrees with brake ducting when it's done right, such as on a NASCAR car.....4 different air ducts to each brake assembly!

I'm actually planning to take one duct and backing plate off for my next weekend at the track, and compare temps at the end of each session as well as overall wear at the end of the weekend. But, I have absolutely no reason not to believe him ...he knows his stuff.

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Old Fri, Aug-24-2018, 03:52:55 PM   #77
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Default Re: BBK Worth it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyEtzio View Post
I had a discussion just the other day with a very knowledgeable guy at Essex Parts about brake ducts......he's not a very big fan of brake ducting, partcularly with their AP kits. With the 72 vane rotors, they're pretty efficient to begin with.

He told me they've done testing and actually seen HIGHER temps with ducts. Apparently the mass produced kits on the market don't deliver enough volume of air, and by blocking the natural intake with the backing plate, they actually cool less. He really only agrees with brake ducting when it's done right, such as on a NASCAR car.....4 different air ducts to each brake assembly!

I'm actually planning to take one duct and backing plate off for my next weekend at the track, and compare temps at the end of each session as well as overall wear at the end of the weekend. But, I have absolutely no reason not to believe him ...he knows his stuff.

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Looking forward to hearing your findings on that.

Running a HARD kit on mine simply because it was recommended to increase component life. Not sure how accurate that is if the temps really get that high, though.
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Old Fri, Aug-24-2018, 03:58:20 PM   #78
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Default Re: BBK Worth it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyEtzio View Post
I had a discussion just the other day with a very knowledgeable guy at Essex Parts about brake ducts......he's not a very big fan of brake ducting, partcularly with their AP kits. With the 72 vane rotors, they're pretty efficient to begin with.

He told me they've done testing and actually seen HIGHER temps with ducts. Apparently the mass produced kits on the market don't deliver enough volume of air, and by blocking the natural intake with the backing plate, they actually cool less. He really only agrees with brake ducting when it's done right, such as on a NASCAR car.....4 different air ducts to each brake assembly!

I'm actually planning to take one duct and backing plate off for my next weekend at the track, and compare temps at the end of each session as well as overall wear at the end of the weekend. But, I have absolutely no reason not to believe him ...he knows his stuff.

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Well, that's interesting. Let us know what you find out!

I was thinking I might start working on a 3D printed model for brake ducts for the fog light area, similar to what TMS does, but then hard back to the wheel area, and then you'd just shoot a flexible line straight across to the backing plate-- should eliminate the need for steering locks. Then share to file, so everyone could use it.

But, my sole goal was longer component life, because people have told me they've doubled their pad life after adding brake ducting...
... but people are pretty good at justifying what they've spent time/money on

Don't have backing plates, so I can't directly compare-- do they block the flow of air more than the stock dust shields? Or is he comparing to no dust shields?

Certainly less effort to not brake duct, and then I can do a CSL bumper
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Old Fri, Aug-24-2018, 04:56:10 PM   #79
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Default Re: BBK Worth it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyEtzio View Post
I had a discussion just the other day with a very knowledgeable guy at Essex Parts about brake ducts......he's not a very big fan of brake ducting, partcularly with their AP kits. With the 72 vane rotors, they're pretty efficient to begin with.

He told me they've done testing and actually seen HIGHER temps with ducts. Apparently the mass produced kits on the market don't deliver enough volume of air, and by blocking the natural intake with the backing plate, they actually cool less. He really only agrees with brake ducting when it's done right, such as on a NASCAR car.....4 different air ducts to each brake assembly!

I'm actually planning to take one duct and backing plate off for my next weekend at the track, and compare temps at the end of each session as well as overall wear at the end of the weekend. But, I have absolutely no reason not to believe him ...he knows his stuff.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
My experience is exactly the opposite. Running PFC Z45 and Z34 and PFC11s, it was somewhat cool at VIR one day a year or so ago, so I ran without ducts. Major impact on brake performance, serious fade, significantly less initial bite after lap 3 or so. Reinstalled the brake ducts, all good again. Will never run without them again unless it is downright cold outside!

--Peter

PS: I will add that I don't know a single ST3 or GTS3/4 racer with an E46 M3 in NASA MA that runs without brake ducts.
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Old Fri, Aug-24-2018, 05:42:09 PM   #80
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Default Re: BBK Worth it?

The fog light area is a proven low pressure area on many other cars so you’re probably getting a fraction of the flow you think you’d get. So higher temps makes sense.

Kind of like having the brake dust shield installed.

On my car, the ducting allows me to run Stoptech street pads without fade on the track. I’m confident that I’m getting a cooling benefit. I have the BW steel backing plates and a homemade kit.


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